Northeast Racing
#3851
Killing Rabbits
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One thing I did see as being a pretty logical alternative a week or two ago were a couple of races offering a different purse for the women (who had half the racers), but equal payout for the top 4 as the men. So the winner took home like $800, then 600, 400, whatever it was for the top 4, exactly the same as the men's race, but their total payout only went down to like 10, instead of 20 for the men. So in these events, in which there were fields of 110 versus fields of 50, I think that was a pretty decent solution.
Last edited by Enthalpic; 06-06-17 at 01:21 PM.
#3852
Senior Member
Does that mean what women have smaller purses? No, because they are competing against smaller fields, making it theoretically easier to place higher as a percentile. Yes the purse is smaller, but the normalized Expected Value (statistics term) is exactly the same.
You need to listen. I am so sick of hearing my friends tell me how beaten down and defeated they feel when they go to bike races or talk about this and have folks like you running their mouths about how it's totally fair to pay them less because of a statistical distribution of prizes according to expected placement. This isn't about that. It's about respect. And when you don't listen to what they're asking for, you're not being respectful.
#3854
Senior Member
So do we. Stop making excuses. Do the right thing. Find the money somewhere else. This is non-responsive.[/quote]
Have you considered asking them? Have you considered asking the 1/2/3 women who were 4's at one time? Maybe they would have better suggestions than me.
#3855
Senior Member
Sorry. I'm still salty about my friends being effectively given the middle finger on the start line. I think some anger is justified. This isn't an abstract issue. This causes people real emotional pain because they love this sport and they get the same crap over and over from guys who want to give their opinions on why there aren't that many women racing and won't listen to what's being asked of them. So, uh, I apologize, I guess?
#3856
Ninny
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Nobody here disrespected your friends. You can communicate your strong feelings on the issue without telling other people to shut up.
I'm not trying to extend the conflict, but honestly I don't even think my kids would try that one.
[edit] my person agenda is not to get you to apologize, it's just to de-escalate.
[edit] my person agenda is not to get you to apologize, it's just to de-escalate.
Last edited by globecanvas; 06-06-17 at 03:38 PM.
#3857
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Speaking of changing the subject, who's in for Harlem June 18? White Plains left me hankering for more fast crit action and also made me realize that a lot of the early-season area crits are not really crits. Branchbrook, Lime Rock, and Augusta are basically circuit races, and Orchard Beach is a track race. I want more fast corners!
#3858
Senior Member
If I can leave it at one point: it's not about money. It's about respect. My friend Lydia has done the work to survey a majority of the women actively racing in New England to ask them some questions about what they value most, and what would make them feel more welcome. So we have actual quantitative survey data that has been presented to New England promoters at the annual race promoter summit.
Women racers in New England don't want a break on entry fees.
They don't want to be reached out to to come to races - they know about the races.
They don't want a less competitive environment.
They want to receive the same recognition for their successes as their male peers. The dollar amount doesn't matter. What matters is that it isn't less than what the men get.
I'm sure promoters are genuinely surprised that their development efforts to get more 4/5 women racing by offering a break on entry fees don't do much, but they shouldn't be. Because money isn't an obstacle, but being disrespected is. If you can't bring yourself to make the small gesture of equalizing pay-outs at your race, chances are you're sending signals of disrespect in other ways as well. Comstock is a special case because he went out of his way to be deliberately disrespectful. Most people don't. But you have to start listening when people tell you you are being disrespectful, and take steps to stop doing it.
The thing is, this isn't actually hard to do. This is part of why I got mad. We've heard the same thing over and over again, about how hard it is. But it's not. Here's how you do it: count up the full prize purse you were paying out before. Divide it in half. Pay out half to the women, and half to the men. The assumption seems to be that this will crush turnout among the men. It won't.
That's the thing. In amateur bike race promotion, doing the right thing is easy. Show everyone respect, and you can do it without changing your bottom line. Maybe your bottom line is red, but it won't be because you did the right thing.
That's all.
#3859
Senior Member
Speaking of changing the subject, who's in for Harlem June 18? White Plains left me hankering for more fast crit action and also made me realize that a lot of the early-season area crits are not really crits. Branchbrook, Lime Rock, and Augusta are basically circuit races, and Orchard Beach is a track race. I want more fast corners!
#3861
Senior Member
yeah but you don't have to worry about driving into the city!
(also, cue earlier discussion on more regional calendar coordination...would be nice if one of these races were on saturday...)
(also, cue earlier discussion on more regional calendar coordination...would be nice if one of these races were on saturday...)
#3862
NYC
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wtf yo.
My opinions are invalid because I don't agree with you, therefore you have decided that I'm not respectful? Meanwhile you pitch a fit like a child and do everything but call me names? Srsly?
Grow the eff up and learn talk to people with respect. You have to deserve respect in order to get respect.
But try to paint me as guilty of some laundry list of sins that exist only in the fantasy land in your own head because I don't agree with you? Eff that and eff you. I got not time for that nonsense. You aren't looking to find a solution. You're looking to make everyone bow down and accept your way. Or the highway. Yeah well you can bully some people with that crap, but if that's your game, then I don't really much care what you think, and I'm not about to play along. Who died and made you god of equality in bike racing?
I'm pretty sure I have a life to attend to, and racing bicycles is a hobby, yes *gasp* a hobby, that I pay to participate in. PAY. Yup. Pretty much like everyone else in the US. Yup.
My solution is really simple: don't have cash prizes in amateur sports.
Take that money and produce two events instead of one. Now I have more races I can try to fit in around, oh, I dunno, normal ish like having a job and a family and a life, just like everyone else. I know you don't like my solution because you want money to magically rain from the sky to support women's bike racing when the sad fact is that the exact name number of people care about women's bike racing as cares about men's bike racing.... which is ZERO. Outside of the people lined up in the line, nobody cares. Well except your own family and friends, but they have to care, that's the price you charge for staying family and friends with them. But nobody else gives the first fark. Your first clue? The word AMATEUR.
But I especially love this little irrational gem: "it's not about money, it's about respect". Um yeah. Except your yardstick for respect is measuring dollars, so you are either completely loony delusional, or trolling intentionally. Either way, I got no time or energy for that, so I dunno, I just tune out the irrational histrionic diatribe and go ride my bike.
da fuk.
My opinions are invalid because I don't agree with you, therefore you have decided that I'm not respectful? Meanwhile you pitch a fit like a child and do everything but call me names? Srsly?
Grow the eff up and learn talk to people with respect. You have to deserve respect in order to get respect.
But try to paint me as guilty of some laundry list of sins that exist only in the fantasy land in your own head because I don't agree with you? Eff that and eff you. I got not time for that nonsense. You aren't looking to find a solution. You're looking to make everyone bow down and accept your way. Or the highway. Yeah well you can bully some people with that crap, but if that's your game, then I don't really much care what you think, and I'm not about to play along. Who died and made you god of equality in bike racing?
I'm pretty sure I have a life to attend to, and racing bicycles is a hobby, yes *gasp* a hobby, that I pay to participate in. PAY. Yup. Pretty much like everyone else in the US. Yup.
My solution is really simple: don't have cash prizes in amateur sports.
Take that money and produce two events instead of one. Now I have more races I can try to fit in around, oh, I dunno, normal ish like having a job and a family and a life, just like everyone else. I know you don't like my solution because you want money to magically rain from the sky to support women's bike racing when the sad fact is that the exact name number of people care about women's bike racing as cares about men's bike racing.... which is ZERO. Outside of the people lined up in the line, nobody cares. Well except your own family and friends, but they have to care, that's the price you charge for staying family and friends with them. But nobody else gives the first fark. Your first clue? The word AMATEUR.
But I especially love this little irrational gem: "it's not about money, it's about respect". Um yeah. Except your yardstick for respect is measuring dollars, so you are either completely loony delusional, or trolling intentionally. Either way, I got no time or energy for that, so I dunno, I just tune out the irrational histrionic diatribe and go ride my bike.
da fuk.
Last edited by nycphotography; 06-07-17 at 09:04 AM.
#3863
Ninny
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It would be nice, but really those two races are not quite in the same catchment area. Also, Harlem has been on Father's Day since the beginning of time.
#3864
Ninny
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On the @grolby and @nycphotography back and forth: both of you have expressed your views, can you both please leave it there and be big enough to walk away from the personal conflict? I don't want to have to close the northeast racing thread!
#3865
Senior Member
#3867
Rides too much bike
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I feel bad I won't be at Greenfield again this year. The SO and I are headed up to a reunion before she needs to take off for India. I will see if I can't drum up some other local peeps to do some crit action.
#3868
NYC
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On the @grolby and @nycphotography back and forth: both of you have expressed your views, can you both please leave it there and be big enough to walk away from the personal conflict? I don't want to have to close the northeast racing thread!
I didn't think that kind of crap was warranted, and didn't deserve a free pass, so I responded. Once. I can assure you I will not be going back and forth on this.
#3869
Senior Member
to be fair, your SO should probably be the one who feels bad (kidding, obviously). have fun, hope to see you at some of the later critweek races!
#3870
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And she does! Her constant travel plans means she always misses her / your team's race! I may make an appearance at Fitchburg.
#3871
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An easy fix for the payout gender equity issue would be to do away with payouts completely. Some compelling thoughts on the subject here:
https://www.tobedetermined.cc/journa...mateur-cycling
https://www.tobedetermined.cc/journa...mateur-cycling
#3872
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I didn't read the above but I agree. Racing for money is stupid unless it's next saturday and $10 primes every lap in which case it's fun because it changes the race.
#3873
Ninny
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Rockleigh cancelled tonight due to road construction! TKP thanks so much for texting me. My bike was already in the car Was looking forward to getting thrashed by gsteinb.
#3874
Ninny
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Wellll here we go again.
Harlem is the day after tomorrow.
Pre-reg: 106 @ $40 = $4240
Prizes: $10500
Permit: $3000*
Police: $5000*
Misc: $3000*
* are semirandom guesses but given these numbers the event is looking at a $15-20k loss. So either there is massive last-day and day-of registration or the event gets cancelled. If it does happen, no way do the prizes stay intact.
AFAICT the promoters have done no promotion. It's an iconic race so maybe they didn't think they had to. There is a 30-40% chance of rain and the course is super painty and generally dangerous, but it's always been a crashy race, they call it the Harlem Skinscraper after all.
Counterpoint: The big NYC area weeknighters, Floyd and Rockleigh, get a hundred racers every night, three nights a week, that's several thousand racers per season. Much lower race costs, no road closures or police. No promotion, almost negative promotion (it's actively difficult to get information about the races). Seems like there would be room for a weekend series following a similar model.
Harlem is the day after tomorrow.
Pre-reg: 106 @ $40 = $4240
Prizes: $10500
Permit: $3000*
Police: $5000*
Misc: $3000*
* are semirandom guesses but given these numbers the event is looking at a $15-20k loss. So either there is massive last-day and day-of registration or the event gets cancelled. If it does happen, no way do the prizes stay intact.
AFAICT the promoters have done no promotion. It's an iconic race so maybe they didn't think they had to. There is a 30-40% chance of rain and the course is super painty and generally dangerous, but it's always been a crashy race, they call it the Harlem Skinscraper after all.
Counterpoint: The big NYC area weeknighters, Floyd and Rockleigh, get a hundred racers every night, three nights a week, that's several thousand racers per season. Much lower race costs, no road closures or police. No promotion, almost negative promotion (it's actively difficult to get information about the races). Seems like there would be room for a weekend series following a similar model.