grolby

Oh, and I sympathize with Fudgy's cry for data, but memory and anecdote is just the best we've got. There's no way to reconstruct, for example, crash rates from the old days. USAC could start a crash-reporting system tomorrow and still be unable analyze the success or failure of racer training from any date prior to 6/10/14 with that data. So we just throw away the limited info we have from old-timers (sorry CDR...) because we think they're just old fogeys? Do we take them 100% at their word? Or is there a way to incorporate the recollections of people who have been racing for decades while acknowledging that memory is imperfect and rose-tinted by nostalgia? After all, what we know about how racing and cycling culture have changed in the last 30 years is almost entirely from the living memory of people who have been riding that whole time. There's just not a lot of this stuff written down in books. But we believe at least some of it, surely.

grolby

Ah, gotcha. One need not have anything to do with the other. Of course, that assumes that knowledge of and/or emphasis on race craft has declined over the last 10-15 years, which I wouldn't know. I haven't been at this very long.

shovelhd

The really good officials in my LA (NEBRA) have been around for a very long time. They've worked thousands of races and seen pretty much everything. To dismiss the value of this experiential data simply because there is no "hard evidence" is stupid. It's just as stupid as judging the capability of a rider by their ewang.

furiousferret

For what its worth, most of the racers in our Cat 5 races seem to be pretty good bike handlers. In our area there are 3 competitive group rides, and if I include SoCal there are probably at least 50. That doesn't even include the standard group rides, which are probably triple that. If you're under 18 and race for the junior clubs around here you'll get free coaching as well. So there is an infrastructure out there for those that pursue it, the problem is that there is no obligation for a racer to participate in these prior to a race.

During these rides I have a few guys that keep tabs on me, and give me advice (since they know I'm new to racing). I also have another 65 (give or take) that will yell at me if I do something stupid.

However, there are still a ton of guys out there that train alone (*cough* triathletes *cough*), and race occasionally. Others live out in the middle of nowhere and may not have the option for a group hammerfest. IMO, USAC needs a way to reach these people. Its been said here already, but those guys can do their 10 races, and they can cause a crash in every race and nothing is to stop them. Other than separating all the new racers, there is no preventative or remedial action taken for guys that are dangerous riders.

Brian Ratliff

You can keep asking for data, but if it ain't there, all you got is all you got. Look, you might be able to put metrics on some of this stuff, and I don't think you are going to get any pushback from suggesting that this is a good idea. But there are some things that just aren't really that amenable to measurement. How do you measure cornering skill or race craft? What metrics would you use that would be a good proxy for this information?

Regardless, the sport could probably use some good system for teaching Cat5 racers race craft and bike handling skills. Whether it is better or worse than it ever was is pretty irrelevant; it is what it is, and if there is some benefit to putting on a series of skills clinics or somewhatever in the present, then maybe we should all be considering it.

With our current system of a "rules body" separate from race administration/promotion, it will be difficult to get a formal requirement up and running. What Oregon has are certain races and promoters who self-designate as skills developers (and OBRA goes and marks these races specifically as "beginner friendly"). There are also certain clubs and teams that self-designate as for "race development", with an emphasis on learning racecraft and bike handling. And, of course, there is also the velodrome model where beginners are required to take a class prior to racing. In Oregon, specifically for track, it's old school. The upgrade criteria runs through one person. At some point, if you are racing regularly and showing progress with your race skill, you get "the talk". There is an upgrade point criteria, but until you get "the talk", you aren't going to be upgraded.

grolby

Yep. I mean, like I said, I get it; I'm a scientist by profession for crying out loud, so I'm not immune to "Data! Data! Data!" as a rallying cry. That's today's buzzword. "Big Data." "Data Journalism." "Anecdote ≠ data." Et cetera. But we have people, and shouldn't we trust them a bit? I'm a huge stickler for clear data in my work life, but my professional world has different demands than bike racing does.

merlinextraligh

Don't let the best be the enemy of the good. You're absolutely right; identifying the right metric, tracking that metric, and measuring the effect of initiatives designed to improve the metric would be great. But not having that data shouldn't preclude efforts to improve things.

carpediemracing 

I'm okay with your criticism. I'm the one that records all his outdoor rides, even use a dash cam in the car, because I trust video more than I do recollection. On the other hand even accounting for my nostalgic recollection I think that there's a drop in riding skills, or at least there's a permeation of lower riding skills reaching further up.

The bold - yes, "back in the day" stupidity was similar in "stupidity" as now - judgment is hard/impossible to train. The difference that I've seen is the lack of education if you will, the lack of "sharing the knowledge". You can't fix stupid but you can educate those that want to learn. Using your example, if that old timer that went across the group to draft the car didn't take anyone out, or even come close to it, if his move was smooth (albeit unexpected), then you could say that he was stupid but knew enough not to actually take out the others. I've drafted cars (well trucks to be precise) to "attack" on small group rides, although my intent wasn't to do anything but do a good, hard jump. In fact those that know me won't even react, unless they want to do a jump as well, because they know they'll see me in a minute or two.

So the guy that took me out in 2009, he's more the former (lack of judgment) than the latter (lack of skills/technique). I refer to that crash often for a couple reasons, one is that it's the first time I broke a bone ever and I had over 25 seasons of racing under my belt, the other is that the guy that took me out had probably been racing for almost as long. As you point out stupidity hasn't changed. I've seen a few other flagrant stupid moves and they stick out because they're ridiculous.

On the other hand I have 8, maybe 10 teammates, Cat 4s and 5s, who are starving for knowledge. They really, really want to race better but they don't have much opportunity to learn "more". They want to be better bike racers. Many of our more experienced teammates (Cat 3s, for example) have only a few years of racing under their belts and they're in a similar situation - they come to me asking for tactical advice, they have difficulty explaining things, etc. Without effective feedback constantly streaming their way, it's hard for the first and second year racers to improve. They were dangerous at the beginning of the season, no doubt about it. They were dangerous maybe 4 weeks ago. They just didn't know.

Group rides help with some of it, like pace lines and such (that's what it seems like everyone tries to teach newcomers first) but they rarely teach actual cornering, since group rides rarely corner side-by-side at high speed, meaning a 90 degree turn on a flat road at 30 mph. They stream through more casually, they'll naturally string out, etc, so there's less opportunity or reason to deal with cornering on group rides.

There needs to be some more education and more instant feedback, i.e. people saying things to the ones making mistakes.

I know that there are riders out there that haven't grasped some of the basics, so they're lacking technique, not necessarily judgment. Those riders are ripe for learning. In the old days, around here, there was more infrastructure for that. There was also less "politically correctness", so the patrons would yell at the others (I got yelled at plenty of times - how do you think I learned?). The problem now is that the patrons aren't racing with the new racers. Also everyone's an expert so you get a lot of pushback if you holler unwanted advice (and from what I've seen, some of the yelled advice is really wrong, based on my, ahem, "expertise" )

I also know there are those out there that lack judgment, but that's not really fixable except by tracking them and banning them. That was part of my reason for proposing some rule changes to USAC but they shot me down. I haven't tried again.

I tend to focus on one result at a time. If I can help one rider at a time, that's great. Educate them, help spread knowledge. I know it helps, I can see the improvement myself now that I can do the B races. It took one week of the new racers realizing something wasn't right, asking for help, and getting feedback. I can say that I think all my Cat 4-5 teammates are now better, safer racers. I think that many of their competitors, in this area, have similarly improved. As everyone improved one racer started to stand out as someone "not changing". It may be a judgment thing, I don't know, but at this point he's caused a crash (I wasn't at the race) where at least one racer broke a bone. When most people do things better and one doesn't, the one that doesn't stands out a bit more.

So that's my rambling "Junior woke up and I fell asleep 7 hours ago so I can't get back to sleep" post.

carpediemracing 

Oh, as far as warming up goes, my point was that if it's not critical to doing well in a race then someone should say so. The emphasis needs to be on the stuff that really counts, and warming up may not be the thing to focus on if, say, the rider is leaving a gap when exiting corners.

Would warming up help me in my races? Maybe there's a few percent improvement, I don't know, but improving my max average wattage by 5 or 10 watts isn't going to help me in pretty much any race where I've been in trouble - I need a 30-50% improvement to hang in those races, based on what sort of wattage I held until I blew up. With what I've got I've done well in races consistently without warming up, both with lots of training or very little training (I used to think that if I trained more my legs needed more time to warm up, but that was only the case if I did massive miles the day before the race).

As pointed out it's probably not the (lack of) warm up that is getting the rider dropped.

On the other hand if a racers shows up at a race after driving there from work, doesn't have time to warm up, but has reasonable racing skills, then what's the harm? They have a job, they made a point of getting to the race instead of doing something else, and they're racing.

gsteinb

Group riding skills gap making UK road racing dangerous - BikeRadar



British Cycling launches campaign to develop safer road race skills - BikeRadar

Ygduf

******' testers!

shovelhd

Good stuff gsteinb.

shinyandfree

What you're not realizing is that all the real racing was taking place in the front group. Plenty to learn up there. Sometimes the big split comes right at the start. Give it everything to stay with it and it will usually slow down in short order.

Moyene Corniche

Cat 5 is introductory. But belonging to a club with a wide range of Categories is also critical. Sure you can do it solo but it will probably triple the learning curve as far as time expended. Having the opportunity to ride and learn is critical to the skill levels needed once on a race course. Learning tactics while racing is the norm. Learning how to control a bike while racing is a recipe for unpleasant results. You cannot go into a 90-120 degree corner and expect to exit on an optimal line and at speed unless one has practiced this in a group ride or even solo multiple times prior to the race.

Cat 5 should be the time to focus on how to ride in a race, how to control that bike and be ready. Screw the results, you get upgrade automatically after 10 races, so the emphasis should be learning how to race so that at the end of the day you are driving home and not being driven home as an outpatient.
At this level the emphasis should not be on winning but rather how to survive. Way too many complaints about how Cat 5 is not working. It works only if all the participants are on the same page. Granted if there are only 5 to 10 cat 5's at a race then combining with the 4's is necessary.

Keep in mind that there isn't always sufficient support personel and vehicles. so combining makes sense, since the option would be to cancel the race. take the Cat 5 experience as a learning time, it will pan out when in higher categories. You have much to learn in the initial years so use them wisely.
Emphasize finishing a race, which is more important then trying to win it. There needs to be a knowledge base in your brain so that you can react to situations in a race. If it's alien and you have to think about it, it's too late, the moment has passed. Racing is very much about the flow, which demands having developed both the fitness required as well as the bike handling skills to stay out of trouble. Meaning never should you be in a panic mode.
Take that corner example, they crashed because of poor bike skills, one of which is the appropriate set-up for each and every corner. The same corner on a course is going to require a different approach each lap. Based on wether you are solo, in a pack, in breakaway or with a couple riders who are way out of their comfort zone. Racing is about continuously assessing and adapting to a constant state of flux.
None of this is apparent and only comes with time spent on the bike in a controlled group environment.
When it comes to cornering at speed, you should eventually be able to control and stay upright when both front and rear wheels are drifting. No better place to practice this then descending from a a mountain top on a sinuous road. ( switchbacks ).

One of the most valuable learning experience for me was to be in France racing with an amateur club. I would recommend it to any Cat 4's and 3's. Amateur racing in Europe is still light years from domestic racing. Brutal, it can be, but more importantly the emphasis there is in getting riders to race efficiently. A small local club in France has a better support system for it's riders then clubs here like Hot Tubes. It's about the club/team rather than the all too prevalent about me scenario here. ( sorry but that is a reality ).

Moyene Corniche

Yes... We sucked wind back then just as well as today ...

But seriously, as society has evolved ( perhaps not the correct definition ) over the past couple decades, cycling is a reflective microcosm. There is tremendous emphasis on the singular approach versus the group theme. Thus it is much more prevalent, or the lone wolf scenario.
As CDR suggests, change has to come from USAC itself, it's a top down approach or it just won't stick.

furiousferret

I get what you are saying, but telling a Cat 5 to sit and not worry about winning, is basically telling them not to enjoy racing until they hit the 4's. If I want to do that, maybe I can just Cat up doing an MS150 ride. People are always trying to marginalize Cat 5. Despite having a crowd of less than 5 people, a course not swept or set up, no medical support, no team support, not even significant others caring to show up its still a race to the people toeing the line. We still train just like every other racer, go to sleep hungry, attend the hammerfests, obsess about power numbers, etc.

Whatever system gets put in play it shouldn't interrupt the actual race.

grolby

Don't be obtuse. Telling a Cat 5 to not worry about winning doesn't mean that anyone thinks that Cat 5 racers shouldn't be interested in winning or want to win races. It means that wins as a Cat 5 are not the measure of how well a new racer has learned and internalized the art of race craft. Not a single poster in the 33 has ever said a Cat 5 shouldn't want to win bike races, and if you're paying attention at all, that should be pretty clear. What is being said is that Cat 5 exists for a purpose other than providing another category in which someone can win a bike race. Every Cat 5 race has a winner. Duh. So what? That's the point. If you think arguing that there needs to be more structure to safely guide Cat 5 racers through the learning process is "marginalization," I don't really know what to tell you other than to go back and re-read the thread. You don't just go and teach someone to play soccer by throwing them into a game with a bunch of experienced players. You teach them relevant skills through drills and practices that may not bear much resemblance to the actual game. And if the student whines that this is "interrupting the actual game," you tell them to shut the hell up and do the drills, because the student doesn't actually have the experience to know the most effective way to learn the game, let alone what they even need to do in the first place. And then you synthesize by running a 15-minute scrimmage at the end of practice. There's room for drilling and scrimmage when you learn a new game. Why anyone thinks cycling should be taught purely through unsupervised scrimmages is unclear.

hack

Sure, you should be trying to race hard and if possible, place well/win. However, that isn't the primary objective of cat 5. Cat 5 should be there to teach how to race hard, safely, and smartly.

furiousferret

Typical, you toss out insults than largely agree with what I have said. This is the third time you've pulled this stunt and I've largely ignored them because its unproductive. You'll do anything to impress some people on this site.



It has been said. Maybe not in those exact words, but the 'doing the 10 races and getting out' seems to be the general theme.



This was the point I made earlier. Cat 5 races are just another race. There are a few around the country that are supported well, but for the most races its just a money grab. Most around here start so early nothing is set up and there is nothing in any terms of any 'mentoring' or an adult version of tee ball practice (as you propose).

caloso

Sigh. I haven't won a race since I was a 5. Now you're telling me I wasn't supposed to try to win?

Moyene Corniche

No... I don't think we are on the same page. If you are racing and enjoying it only to win, then you are going to be disappointed more often than not. This has to be about enjoying the sport as a whole, bad days and good days. This is where a club comes in ( a well structured club, not one one based on club member status. ) one where there is mentoring for new members. Where there is a system designed to bring riders up to speed with the intricacies of racing.
You cannot race well without the needed skills. Riding a bike and racing a bike comprise a very different set of skills. Which can only be achieved with a lot of training. Bike handling is key when conditions are less than ideal, the competitors are stronger than you anticipated and the course is plainly a challenge. Cat 5 is a learning phase, we all had to go thru the phase at one point. Looking at it on the positive/productive spectrum of What can I get out of this ? rather than " This isn't good or that isn't what it should be" will only shut you off from observing critical subtleties.
You couldn't put a NASCAR driver in an FI car at the Monaco Grand-Prix and expect that it will be a win. More like a carnage. Not being offensive but there are vital skills to be learned at the Cat 5 level and no one is exempt.
I read the other posts and I beg to differ. As you rise up the Categories, there are various skill sets needed that demand to be not only learned and ingrained but also refined.

Racing a closed circuit Crit isn't like racing at Killington Stage Race where in the circuit race finish, it's an all-out sprint downhill at 70+kph, or descending from Brendon Gap attempting to bridge. Or riding in a crosswind echelon in the pouring rain at full gas.
Sorry the race course isn't swept clean or the support isn't there or whatever. Bike racing is really about attrition and the one's that can adapt to the challenges will do well.
I rarely have raced on a course that is 100% prepared, smooth pavement, no glass, no sand, no annoying potential canines or suicidal squirrels.
It's all part of the fun and enjoying the moment. Some promoters are great at providing a well designed, safety conscious race course. Other's, not so much. ( I was a Promoter so I'm speaking from both viewpoints. ) Also bear in mind that often what a city or town promises to have repaired or prepared for race day doesn't always happen, as a matter of fact, I was more surprised when they came thru then not.

Look at the big picture, sweating the small stuff like solo support, logistics challenges etc.. is no different than what everyone else goes thru racing. Be it here or at some small race in a petit patelin in France.

grolby

Okay, first of all, if "don't be obtuse" is so insulting that you need to break out that amateur psychoanalysis about my putative motives, I suggest you step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath. You came out with a complaint that Cat 5 racers are being told not to race for the win, in fact that they are being told not to even have fun. It's a complaint so absurd that "don't be obtuse" didn't seem all that strong to me. But hey, I'm not here to hurt your feelings, okay? I'm sorry.

Second, I don't think we largely agree, but it's hard to say because the points you're trying to make are unclear to me. Do you think Cat 5 needs more support and more instruction, or not? Because demanding that alterations (which aren't really in the cards at USAC anyway) not interrupt the "actual race" sounds like you think more structured clinics and the like are just no fun because it's not really racing somehow. Complaining about lack of attention is, well, not exactly the opposite side, but more structure would require more attention from officials.

There is a diversity of opinions on whether you should do 10 and get out right away or stay in Cat 5 until you feel comfortable, or if there should be some kind of individual discretion involved by upgrade officials. But ain't nobody saying you shouldn't try to win if you want, only that it isn't the objective of racing in the category.


It sounded a heck of a lot more to me that your point was that everyone is telling the Cat 5 racers not to try to win their races. Which they aren't. Then there was your justifying point about how no one pays any attention to the 5s, which I get, but which seems kind of orthogonal to the question of whether you should be wanting to win or not. All I can tell you is that no is ever going to give a crap about the result of the Cat 5 race except the people in it. But you know, so what, because that's also true of the result of the Cat 4 race, the Cat 3 race, most of the time the Cat 2 and Cat 1 races as well. If the Cat 5 racers are being treated more poorly as customers (lack of medical support, no course set up, whatever) than the rest, that's a problem with the promoter, sure. No argument there. It also has not been the standard practice to treat Cat 5s that poorly in the places I've raced. But I've raced primarily in two regions, the Southeast and the Northeast, so my base of experience is totally insufficient to say what the level of support given Cat 5 races is across the country. What about you?

I guess what I want to know is, what exactly ARE you trying to say? Okay, you think Cat 5 is marginalized. What do you think needs to change? You seem to be saying that insisting that Cat 5 should have a greater focus on learning would be further marginalizing it - is that accurate? If not, I'm really not seeing what you are unhappy about in this discussion.

lsberrios1 

No, but those wins didn't count for anything in anybody's life.

Ygduf

If you're not earning a living from racing, your wins basically don't count for anything.

lsberrios1 

Not true! I get paid in ego dollars.