Oh, huh. Guess I can stick with my current tires! Seriously though, I'm not sure if the rr difference between 25 and 23 is enough to overcome the (very slight, yes) aero penalty of the wider tires? I'm running 25c GP4000S IIs right now on wide rims (H Plus Son Archetype) and they are pretty damn fat. I haven't gone to latex tubes yet, though I am on thin butyl tubes. I'm a little paranoid about running pricey tubes all the time, since I don't change wheels between training and racing, but I am thinking about it for next year. I flat rarely enough that I don't think it would be too expensive.

I rode GP4KII 25 clinchers with latex tubes all last year, on 25mm rims, training and racing. I really, really liked them.

At the end of the year I picked up a set of 25mm tubular wheels and put Schwalbe One 24s on them. They felt noticeably less smooth to me. Much lighter, though, of course.

When I got my new bike, I thought my power meter was broken. Riding with old bearings and drivetrain, slow tires, and dirty components was costing me a few watts. It seemed like around 30, but that's from the eye test and is no way scientific. With the new bike I could go xx speed @ 150 watts where the old bike seemed like 170-190 watts.

It is amazing to notice dozens of minor changes in all aspects of your riding making a very big overall difference in performance.

That's what I use because in the end, its the best tire for a lazy amateur racer that uses the same tire to race and train. Its an expensive tire, but in goat head season a bad tire can cost you $50 a week in tubes. Schwalbe One's seemed marginally faster, but you could cough and it would cause a flat.

What I don't like about GP4000 is they are tough to put on without tire irons...

Strange, I would have expected your hands to be more than strong enough to handle something floppy and rubbery.

(GP4K IIs are fine on my wheels).

Exactly right. Most tires I can take off tire and tube and change a flat in a couple of minutes at best, I struggle with GP4000 (and any tubulars I glue myself). Not sure why.

wait, for real? with your big throbbing muscles and grip? Even I can put gp4000s onto carbon rims without levers...

yup

In other mundane news, my smartphone died a week ago. Haven't really missed it, although I did order a cheap used one from Ebay yesterday, so I can surf BF while killing time.

I've got weak old man arthritis grip and I can even work with GP4ks without much issue (this includes my 25mm wide carbon wheels).

I think that has to do with individual wheels. On my wide wheels I can get any tire on (of the 2 or 3 ive had on it) no problem by hand, but on my Open Sports its even pretty tough with tire levers and I feel like im going to break the levers

What I don't like about GP4000S is everything. They feel like riding on pencils, rough, hard, uncommunicative ride. They are also stiff, as you mentioned, and difficult to work with.

I'm riding Schwalbe One now because they came on my bike and when those are shot I will go back to Pro4

Interesting. I have been on GP4000S for the past few seasons, and I have no complaints, but I can also get a really good deal on Schwalbe Ones, so I am tempted to try them out.

I dig GP4ks and liked the Mich Pro3's, but got a lot of flats with them. If the Pro4s were better than the 3s for flats, I'd give them a go. I've also read that the Pro4s run wider than advertised (e.g., 25s are closer to 28s).

I've so infrequently had a skinsuit while I was fit (I've either been fit without a skinsuit or been not fit and had them) that I've used my skin suits on the trainer more than anywhere else. My almost brand new 2011 obsolete team kit skinsuit has gotten all but 4 or or so uses while on the trainer. In 2010, when I should have had a skinsuit, I didn't.

In 2015 I hope to need one. Of course I don't have any except my 40-45 deg F crit longsleeve+shorts thermal skinsuit (worn zero times outside). I don't even have a current size M jersey. My size L jerseys are getting big on me.

I didn't think the 25 Pro4 were overly wide, they felt very supple, handled well, and rode fast. To me they provided a soft communication with the road and were very racecar feeling, whereas the GP4000 just made me feel every vibration, inconsistency, and bump in the road and I'd never be able to ride something that has a poor aesthetic quality and a bad ride again. I don't really take flats into consideration as every tire I've ridden was fairly similar in that regard, except the Mavic tires, which rode so well but flatted constantly.

Me too. I admit they are more difficult to put on when new. I use leather gloves so that I do not mess up my pretty boy hands.

also depends on the rim. on the widest alloy rim i have (3t Accelero at 24 mm); they were quite easy; ditto with most other box sections. Kinlins, not so much. I've nicked quite a few tubes (viz. accidental puncture) that way as well...

tubulars are also fun. i need neoprene gloves or else my hand gets torn up. best part is scraping off the remaining bits of glue...

I'll give them a whirl since they seem to run cheaper than the GPs.

+1

A guy that work with a wheel company said that one of the frustrating things with buying (metal) rims was that the rims were really inconsistent. Since they're formed in loops from straighter pieces of metal they could be a bit large or small.

Tires and molded rims (aka carbon) are very exact because they're molded. The margin for error is much smaller.

old skinsuits make great winter training kits too because you're inevitably going to be wearing a jacket/vest with pockets.

Good call on skinsuits as winter training kit. Like a onesie with a pad and leg grippers.

everyone likes different stuff, but there's a reason they are cheaper. pro4s are garbage, I say. Garbage. (ymmv)

What?!??! I just bought like 6 of them!