this is most interesting thread in a while for me. im digging on a lot of good ideas, but it seems to me for this to work we would need a lot of people behind one really good idea, just dont look at me, i like the idea of a nice lugged steel frame, or a affordable ti frame, or a cheap-o beater f-around frame. i am wondering how many orders it would take to get an existing brand like iro or soma or kogswell to run a new model? a group order would be worth it just for the banter in frame design and "how you set YOURS up" threads. it would be like a constructive interpretation of the bfssfg method. oh and count me in.