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Old 05-03-07 | 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
We experienced "stoker steering." The bike seemed quite flexible, so that my stoker kept trying to correct for how the bike was jumping about, and of course that felt to me like the bike was really jumping around.
Not sure how recently you've ridden the Cannondale or any other tandems before this outing, but aside from the inherently "bouncier" ride of any tandem vs. single bikes and your prior experience / expectations from the Cannondale, what you were likely reacting to was the Co-Motion’s longer steering trail and not a noodly-frame. While the Cannondale frames are super-stiff, they also have less steering trail are like the Santana tandems in that they are more resistant to body lean or heavy pedal stroke induced steering inputs than the Co-Motions. Large teams, teams that push big gears, teams with tall stokers or stokers who move around a lot, or captains who ride with a death-grip on the bars will all exacerbate the Co-Motion's “twitchy” steering" (common street jargon with negative connotation, but not really an accurate description of what's going on and the "goodness" of long-trail) until such time as they correct those behaviors or simply adapt to the way the tandem reacts to their riding style or team size. Most but not all teams will adapt and those who are still fighting the handling characteristics of a Co-Motion are easy to spot: look for the arm muscle and fork twitching that accompany almost every pedal stroke when they’re pushing a big gear or climbing.

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Will the Speedster be stiffer? The Roadster stiffer yet? We didn't think that the C'dale was too stiff.
Co-Motion's frames are all very stiff compared to most other production tandems. In talking with the folks at Co-Motion, you’ll find that they design their different tubesets -- the Reynolds 725 air hardened tubing (used on non-coupled Speedsters, Cappuccino, Mocha, & Supremo), the Reynolds 631 (used on Primera and all coupled frames), and Easton 7000 Series (used on the Roadster & Robusta) -- to deliver the same stiffness but with the inherent weight savings associated with the air hardened steel and aluminum tubesets. Therefore, any significant perceived differences are likely due to other considerations which include the weight, the sound, differences in wheels and tires, as well as rider expectations (the mind is a powerful thing). Remember, before the Reynolds 725 tubesets came along, the Speedsters that earned Co-Motion's reputation as a performance tandem builder were built using the same zonally-butted 631 framesets found on the Primera: we're talking topself heat-treated chromly. Also, bear in mind that while the Speedster/Supremo and Roadster/Robusta frames are lighter than the Primera's tubeset, the big weight reductions with the high-end Robusta and Supremo come mostly from the components used on those bikes (as do the associated higher costs).

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
We'd also like to get the Wound Up fork. Will that have a positive effect on this stiffness issue?
The Wound-Up fork (as well as the True Temper X2) provide you with weight savings without sacrificing stiffness vs. Co-Motion’s very robust steel forks; however, while Co-Motion’s stock forks are where that additional steering trail comes from, the Carbon forks have less rake which means even more steering trail. So, rather than nulling out the stoker-steering they could make it even more pronounced. Now, to be fair, any subsequent ride on the same Co-Motion that you test rode would yield a more familiar and comfortable ride than your first. As you discovered, the Co-Motion’s have some very desirable handling traits. However, for first time tandem teams or teams that have been riding Santana, Burley (non-Race models), non-carbon fork equipped Trek tandems, Cannondales, Bilenky, KHS, or just about any of the other tandems that have more conservative steering geometry, they can “feel” like a handful. We often joke that there are a couple tandem dealers out there who use Co-Motions to sell Santanas by putting first timers on the Co-Motion and THEN putting them on the Santana. Less I digress… go back for another test ride and see if you don’t come away with a different impression.

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
We'd probably run Vredestein 25 tires, but are concerned that the stock Dyad rims are too wide for a 25. Should we upgrade to Aerohead rims? Or put 28c Ultra Gatorskins on the Dyad rims?
As for rim widths, the Vredestein 25’s are about at the lower limit for the Dyad. Yes, 23mm tires can be mounted to the Dyad, but you end up with a very short tire and will be cornering on the sidewall seams which can be less sure-footed than the tread compounds, are unprotected by the PRS liner, and more susceptible to nicks and cuts. Again, they "work" but it's not an ideal, long-term match.

Looking at rim choices, we’re a 285lb team that has been using 23mm and 25mm Vredestein Fortezzas since 1997 on 36h wheels built with Mavic CXP30 and Velocity Deep-V rims: no complaints and never an inclination to switch to something else either. We have been using the 26” Aeroheat rims on our off-road tandems since ’00 which is very similar to the Aerohead as well as the wider Dyad and it too is a good wheel, but not my preferred design for sport tandems.Therefore, based on personal experience, I’d be more inclined to suggest the Deep-Vs over the Aerohead… although not as light as the Aerohead or the Dyad, the Deep-V is a more robust rim that builds up easier, stiffer, and stays true even over less than idea road conditions. However, that said, any of the three are very good rims for tandems: Aerohead for weight weenies, Dyad for touring or larger teams, and Deep-V for anyone who wants them that falls in between the two other designs.

Last edited by TandemGeek; 05-03-07 at 05:48 PM.
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