Originally Posted by genec
Originally Posted by Helmet head
Do you agree the problem of bad drivers is less of an issue for vehicular cyclists than for cyclists who do not practice VC on roadways?
No, I do not agree that the problem of bad drivers is less of an issue for vehicular cyclists... as I clearly pointed out if I were
sidewalk riding the issue would not have even occured.
Please answer the question after rereading it (I emboldened the relevant part that you ignored).
Vehicular cyclists are particularly vulnurable to bad drivers simply due to the fact that we are fully immersed in the same environment as all other drivers, either good or bad. Therefore cyclists may "fare better" when fully isolated from the motoring environment which includes such "bad drivers."
Do you believe vehicular cyclists are more or less "fully immersed" than other cyclists
on the road?
By "fully isolated" - what do you mean, and what does that have to do with vehicular cycling (which only applies on roadways)?
The fact that your response essentially says, well we do fare better except when we don't fare better, is a pretty mindless loop:
No, my response says we fare better when we're treated like drivers than when we're not treated like drivers, and that's all that the principle says (with respect to treatment), and that I don't understand what you're objecting to.
So obviously the second half of the VC doctrine: "cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles" depends highly on the "kindness of strangers" that would just as soon not have us right where we have the rights to be; therein is "the big flaw of VC."
Even if there was not one motorist that treated cyclists as drivers the principle would still be true: the more we're treated like drivers, the better off we are. There is no dependency in vc on
every motorist driving perfectly and treating
every cyclist like a driver
all the time. You're just making that up.
And no one has offered a vehicular solution to this issue. Only a rather mindless "shutup and drive."
The issue of "bad drivers" cannot be eliminated with any solution, or any combination of solutions. The best we can do is minimize the danger that they pose to each of us individually. There will always be bad drivers out there who break the rules and treat us poorly. The only solution is to accept it, and figure out how to best deal with it. You can either give up cycling (and walking and driving for that matter), because cycling on bikeways and sidewalks does not isolate you from the bad drivers, and, arguably, makes you more vulnerable in terms of safety, or you can try to improve you odds as much as possible by adopting VC and VC/defensive driving best practices. If you want to mischaracterize that optimal
but not ideal solution as "shutup and drive", that's your problem.