I will put my 2centsworth regarding Riv stuff/philosophy. When I started riding for real in the early 70's, I had a UO-8 and eventually Motobecane Grand Touring, I just rode those bikes in comfort as commuters and touring bikes. I did not think much about them. When I had 3 small kids my riding was mostly limited to a used Bianchi cross bike and a Burley kid hauler. When I started to get more kid free time, I thought it would be fun to get a new bike. I bought a Bianchi Eros. I rode it and after a few miles I was not comfortable, shoulder/neck pain (yes I was older, less flexible..). I suffered and could figure out why. When I rode my Moto, I was more comfortable. One day I stumbled onto the Riv site and catalog. It made me think about things, and then I realized what was goin on. My Eros was sold to me too small frame, with racing mentality salespeople, unlike my bigger UO/Moto frames. Crap, I said, and despite various modifications it never was comfortable. However, if the frame had been larger, it would have been more comfortable. Yes, a racing type frame would not have probably mattered in my youth, but I wonder if it would have been as comfortable as the Moto after many miles. My Moto got some modifications, but mostly for something different. I put Mustache HB with Dirt drop stem, and it was even more comfortable (higher bars). Eventually, due to a gift coupon from Nashabar, I bought their road Fra-May. Funny frame in this day and age, since it had 1 inch headtube and a more classic geometry vs. the compact geo you see more now. I built it up using a Riv guided outlook: Mustache HB, Nitto dirt drop stem, compact crank NOS Ritchey 46/34 low Q with 8 spd 12-32 cassette for wide range for hills. The frame was bigger then what would size in most shops (the 58 cm was more like a 59). It fit great, rode nicely in comfort. Yes the frame is total 7005 alum, non lugged/steel, hard to fender, and with 25mm tire (probably could not be any wider) going against a Riv grain. However, fit overcame other stuff like frame material/tire size. I realized that fit is #1, a bad fit steel frame is not a good as a Riv style fit aluminum frame. Oh yes, about saddles. When I was riding in Europe in the late 70's with my Moto, the original saddle was like hell, wore out, and I got a leather Ideale saddle in a French bike shop (the only one they had....) Well it was comfort from day one. I have Brooks B17 as my standard road saddle now, wonderful on the bottom. I still have the Ideale on the Moto, and it is still going strong. When I rode my last Century last year, I had more people look at my bike with mustache bars and B17. Some got it and some did not. My friends on the ride had one main complaint, sore butts and sore shoulders. When I look at their bikes, too small frames, racer saddles. I would bet a bigger frame and B17 would help them greatly. Again, they were sold a bill of goods inspired by the 1% racer types, but not fit for the rest of the 99% riders. So pick what you want from Riv, high bars, larger frames, leather saddles, better practical gearing, and comfort without sacrificing much speed will be the reward. My beef with Riv is not with their frames, but with the affordability factor. I wish I could get one of their frames, but at their prices my wife would be on my butt in sticker shock, crying their goes the kids college tuition.... GP needs to work on more affordable frames. He has started in that direction with the Bleriot, almost making it affordable to buy the frame and build it up. He needs to get a similar 700cc road bike at a lower price start. However, to his credit, his philosophy has started to trickle down to the masses, see the compact cranks and attemps at more comfortable bikes being more common. In conclusion, whenever I see a bike I think fit, practicality, and comfort above all else. Thank you for the rant...