HoCam - thanks for the tech info, very useful. I won't let 531 stay sway my choice.

Acornuser - I'll check out some of those names, thanks. I know Condor, but i'm not keen. I like the lug work on mercian and bob jackson, their more unique and I like that there still built in shop.

Markwebb - Don't worry, I'm definitely going for lugs (thats one of the best bits about steel). Is 853 only welded, I didn't think so?

Highlyselassie - both bikes are custom built for the price above, I just wanted to find out if there were any thoughts on either frame builders quality/reputation, etc

USAZorro - I need a 60cm frame but thanks for the offer (if anyone does have a good quality 2nd hand frame out there of this size and type I'm interested - I have an ultegra groupset to add to it already)

repechage - I think I'll be lucky to get a 60th!

In all I'm quite taken with the bob jackson, largely due to curley stays (which I've never seen on the roads in london) whereas I have seen a few Mercians about, but a nine month waiting list may be the killer for bobby!