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Old 02-03-08, 11:59 PM
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Landgolier
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Originally Posted by seaneee
Nope I am not, but lets use NJS as an example- there is a reason that formula hubs don't sport an NJS stamp.
Indeed. It's called "cartridge bearings." However, I'm very impressed that you know how to spell

Originally Posted by seaneee
Nihon Jitensha Shinkōkai
NJS regulates the equipment that can be used in a particular kind of Japanese track racing which is subject to rather large sums of parimutuel betting. Personally, I prefer the much more stringent standards of the USTA, which regulates another, much more strenuous use of 700c wheels for the ultimate purpose of gambling: harness racing. I happen to think that pulling a wheel though 6" of muck behind a 1200lb muck-emitting beast while dodging a half dozen other amphetamine-addled maniacs getting paid nowhere near enough to risk their lives for others' gain much more accurately simulates messenger work and other street riding conditions than anything that goes on at some Japanese velodrome. If it doesn't have a USTA stamp, I don't use it.

Originally Posted by seaneee
Let's use Phil as an example here. Yes, both are made of 6000 series ai. Formula uses stock 6061 while Phil uses a proprietary 6000 series alloy custom made for them. It has a tighter grain which translates into a hub they guarantee for life against defects or breakage. That has to say something about their product- oh and no, it's not the same Al.
It would have saved you a lot of time if you'd just copied and pasted from the Phil Wood marketing copy:

Originally Posted by Phil Wood Web Site
Tech Notes – Hub Shell Material

Hub shells are produced from bars of cold finished proprietary 6000 series aluminum produced in our designated Midwestern U.S. mill. The tight grain structure of the cold finished alloy used in the hub shells provides two special advantages. The first is to provide a lifetime warranty on the hub shell against breakage due to this material and our workmanship. The other is to produce a hub shell capable of our trademark hand polished finish. This material enables us to offer a high gloss black anodize finish as a custom option on most hub models.
Or maybe you actually knew that off the top of your head, and are qualified to discuss exactly why a tighter grain structure would improve the strength of something like a hub shell. If so, enlighten us.

Originally Posted by seaneee
What I will say here is a did get ahead of myself and put loose ball hubs into the mix. But I must ask, by merely looking at the bearing seats, what qualifies you to decide they are "primo"?
The bearings go in evenly rather than hanging up and tipping, and when you take them out they don't scar up a certain part of the seat, which would indicate eccentricity. I measured a set and they were concentric with respect to the spoke holes to 1/20th of a mm, which is admittedly not very precise but that's what I can do with my calipers and it's definitely rounder than I can build a wheel. I don't have the tools to measure whether the seats are parallel, but that's the easiest part of manufacturing process.

Originally Posted by seaneee
I use magical tools that gingerly caress the hub thread, but seriously, why do you wanna know what's in my toolbox? We are talking hubs, not tools. But if you must know I use a DA chainwhip and Hozan locking pliers. Hopefully those pass your tool standards. But that is beside the point. And maybe this goes to the comment above about more people having formulas, but I stand by the comment that you hear more stories of stripped formula threads then any of the marquee brands.
I was talking tools for measuring thread quality, not tools for installing cogs. You would need such tools to actually back up the claim that one set of threading is better than another.

Originally Posted by seaneee
I guess I just straight up disagree with you here. Formula lockrings are crap. They are soft and easily strip. Do a google search. I'm not alone on this one- and I'm talking about the formula ones, which in my opinion fall into the category of the cheap stamped ones.
So wait, the crap threads on Formula's inferior Al hub stripped a STEEL lock ring? Friggin' things must be made of silly putty. Here's a pic of one, though, those concentric milling marks don't look stamped to me, but I've Been Wrong Before¸™™:


DA are probably a little harder steel but aren't stainless, buy what suits your needs.

Originally Posted by seaneee
Again, I will admit being wrong here and jumping ahead of myself by mixing comments about sealed bearing and loose bearing hubs. However, there is no way you can compare say a campy axle to a formula axle- but that is beside the point as we are talking about sealed bearing hubs. Where I totally disagree with you is when you say the bearings are "very, very good". That is just untrue. The bearings are okay, but by no means very x2 good. And if you are buying a new set of hubs, and have to replace the bearings and lockring, why not just spend a bit more and get say a miche hub you can use right out of the box?
Again, if you've got materials spec sheets on campy and formula axles, cough 'em up, otherwise the logic is that they cost more so they have to be better. 26tpi is a pain in the *** anyway. I think the formula bearings are pretty good, I certainly can't see replacing them right from the start. I'm a big guy and I've got about 2000 all-weather miles on a set, one of the rear ones is just starting to need a cleanout. Most people seem to be getting a fair amount of use out of them, and they're easy to flush and lube.

I'd be interested to know what grade of bearing Miche uses that makes them cost $50 more than Formulas. A whole set of Phil-grade bearings costs like $10, Miche must be stealing them off the USS Enterprise and sending them back from the future to make them worth that much more. As for the lock ring, I don't know of any place that sells unbuilt formulas with the lock rings, and everybody and their dog sells DA lock rings, so you can use whatever you want. Speaking of lock rings, that's one good reason not to buy Miche, they don't take standard lock rings, the Miche ones are heavily beveled so you don't have much to get the tool on, and the Campy and Phil are like $25, which is just silly.

Originally Posted by seaneee
Really, I'm with Operator on this one. There is a huge difference in smoothness between say a campy record hub and a formula or phil for that matter. That is like saying you ride both clinchers and tubulars and they feel the same.
Indeed, sealed hubs feel very different in your hand than do loose ball. Again, though, if you can feel the difference on the road, donate your body to science, as thousands of engineers and scientists would love to have an instrument both that sensitive and that capable of filtering out such a huge volume of other effects.
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