thanks for the heads up on the b-17s fellas. i ended up buying a flyer from urbane as i wanted something with springs. even with all the promo codes from nashbar and such it's not that much cheaper (about $100 local). i have to say i don't like all this popularity the brooks saddles are getting, think the prices are going up as a result. i bought my first one five years ago for something like $50 brand new and have bought them for as little as $30 on used on ebay back in the day. still worth the full price though.