[QUOTE=frymaster;7166986]1. the ski lodge in colorado was burned down by the earth liberation front. not eath first! . solid facts win arguments.

2. whether you think the concept of "redefining the centre" is absurd or not, it works, has worked and continues to work. if the sierra club is the only environmental organization there is, they're the extremists. if earth first! tooling around the woods, the sierra club starts to look moderate. now, no one is going to answer yes on a poll to the question: "did you join the sierra club because earth first! are extremists?" but the fact is that folks who are concerned about the environment and consider themselves moderate are actually willing to join the sierra club because they are not the "lunatic fringe"... and the "lunatic fringe" is well defined by pre-existing groups.

3. if you have done any period of time doing any serious activism work on just about any topic you would know that these theories are widely held and there is a long history of data to back it up.[/QUOTE

I stand corrected on point #1; my memory seems to have failed me on this one. Everything else you say here, though, totally defies common sense. Large groups of cyclists riding in an unlawful manner, defying traffic laws, pissing off motorists just to make a point, and occasionally engaging in totally stupid mob behavior, whether or not motorists are the instigators, does not "redefine the center." Rather, this kind of behavior alienates neutral non-cyclists, encourages bike-haters to act out, and ultimately endangers my safety, and the safety of countless responsible cyclists, which I take very personally. It also makes things much more difficult for serious advocacy groups. BTW, I'm not willing to take the word of any serious activists about what works and what doesn't. As far as I can tell, "serious activists" don't have a very good track record.