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Old 10-08-08 | 07:15 AM
  #33  
makeinu
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Originally Posted by datako
Most of this stuff was nailed down as far back as 1896 (yes, over 100 years ago). Look for this book:

Bicycles and Tricycles -An Elementary Treatise on their Design and Construction
By Archibald Sharp (First Edition in 1896, but reprinted since)

A little simple mathematics shows the way.

There's also the much more recent Bicycle Science by Wilson.

I prefer the 1896 book because of the amount of stuff they have in it that has recently been re-invented and is being touted as the latest and greatest thing.
Well, sometimes reinventing something does make it the latest and greatest thing. As time goes on other new technology makes many old ideas viable.

You yourself were quoted as saying although you prefer singlespeed, you'd use a multigeared bike for riding with heavy loads. 110 years ago your bike would itself be a heavy load. So there you go, the old singlespeed technology has suddenly found new life in conjunction with lighter manufacturing.

Of course, Bacciagalupe is arguing that weight doesn't matter...

Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe
Evidence: You can start with the very basic empirical fact that, as previously mentioned, a time trial bike is both heavier and faster than a standard diamond-frame bike. An über-light racing road bike can be 12-14 pounds, and an über-light TT is more like 16 or 17 and will leave the 12 lb bike in the dust. Similarly, as I previously mentioned, aero and disc wheels are much heavier than standard wheels but are faster (unless there's a stiff cross wind). Aerodynamics is far more important factor than weight.

You can continue by checking out the world's fastest HPV, the Varna Diablo II. Max recorded speed on the flats: 82.3mph. Weight: 60 lbs.

And keep going by playing around with the Kreuzotter calculator and examining their equations: http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

I have heard of a study where a researcher plunked a 5lb weight in a downtube, and a group of pro racers couldn't distinguish between a loaded and unloaded bike. I'll see if I can find the reference.

If my own experiences are of any use to you: My Dahon Mariner weighs about the same as my steel road bike (26-28 lbs) but is substantially slower. This is almost certainly due to a very upright position that, on that particular Dahon model, cannot be adjusted. My Swift was also 4-6 lbs lighter than my road bike, but performance was too close to reliably say which is faster.


Theory, as best I understand it: Weight affects acceleration, and that's it. Once in motion, the primary force slowing down the bike is friction, specifically aerodynamic drag, which increases at roughly the square of velocity. Once you go above 12mph or so, even tiny increases in your drag coefficient will slow you down much more than adding weight. Above 18mph, you need huge increases in power output to gain tiny increases in speed.

Ergo, any recumbent rider who can't beat a diamond frame on the flats should be blaming the engine, not the bike.

When climbing, you're fighting gravity; most (non-pro) riders won't ride fast enough up a hill for drag to be a major factor. Even here, though, weight is a smaller factor than you think; Chris Carmichael, Lance Armstrong's coach, describes the impact of adding 2.5kg (~5 lbs) as adding 38 seconds off of a 20-minute long, 5km, 1200 foot climb -- huge for a pro, noticeable for an amateur racer, inconsequential for everyone else.

Subjective rider perceptions about weight are basically BS and highly inaccurate; the human body simply isn't that well calibrated, and has absolutely no reason to develop that ability, and cognitively it would be a very "expensive" one to develop. Perception of performance isn't much better, especially when a new or expensive bike is involved.

From what I've gathered, the only truly objective way to determine the efficiency / performance of a bike is with a power meter. Even an HRM might not do it since your biological efficiency will vary from day to day, so you'd need a large pool of samples.

Anyone willing to kit out a folding bike and a similarly equipped 700c bike with PowerTaps?
I don't think the trained muscles of pro riders are necessarily comparable to our muscles (it's like saying that since you can lift 5 pounds in your arm with only negligibly lower speed than just your arm and then concluding that a baby should be able to do similarly) and I think you're cherry picking situations where aerodynamics are way more important than they would be in normal riding.

A rider averaging 15 mph will spend a significant portion of the ride below 12 mph and if the muscular losses in that region are large enough then the increased load of accelerating extra weight could very well result in weight being a significant factor. Obviously weight only affects acceleration, but the point is that if it affects it enough then that's all it has to affect because acceleration is the gateway to all motion.

While subjective rider perceptions of weight and performance might be BS (which I'll take your word on as you seem to know more about psychology than me), I can confidently say that the Kreuzotter calculator is also BS because it tacitly ignores the very place where we would measure losses due to extra heft (in the muscles).

I actually think a heart rate monitor might do quite well to measure how weight affects the amount of energy needed to ride a course in a given time, but I'd expect to find that pushing a heavier bike will, on average, require a significantly higher heart rate to achieve the same overall speed (that is, on average, and not just the most exotic and egregious riding like the varna diabolo in the flat desert or lance armstrong making minced meat out of 5 pounds with his pistons). A power meter would be less reliable because you wouldn't be able to tell if the rider is just working harder to muster that power...whereas the heart rate monitor would actually be measuring power at the source. In fact, since you're so convinced that people can't tell what gets their heart pumping, I think I'll buy a HRM to see for myself.
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