Thanks for all the input so far, much appreciated. I actually have been to a really good bike shop, Harris Cyclery in West Newton MA and the guys did take some time to look at my position on my bike (or the bike I had at the time). The bike that fits me the best is my Univega gran turismo. It has a 54 cm top tube, and a Technomic stem (up as high as it can go) w/ a 90 mm stem extension. The bars ends up about 2" above my saddle height. And it took a lot of monkeying around to come up with that. I was just wondering if it's ever the case where you just get on a bike and go "ahhhhh, this feels so right" or if it's always a case of dragging out the old parts bin and throwing on this stem or that stem. going for a ride, coming back, trying something else, over and over until you either settle for "not as bad" or just avoid the bike!!