i have a Pake and a Kilo TT. i bought the Pake, back when they first came out, for about $160. it was worth it, the thing is a tank, in all the good and bad ways. but between the Pake and the Kilo TT, i like my Kilo a little better. it is a little lighter and the welding is a little cleaner (at least on mine). i got the Kilo for $200, as mentioned, whereas i haven't seen a Pake for $200 in a while. the included fork is also a bonus, it took me a while to find a fork i liked for my Pake. there is a convenience to just having one included, especially when you are building up a frame and already have to buy all the other parts.