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Old 12-10-08 | 10:03 AM
  #13  
interested
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From: København

Bikes: Kinesisbikes UK Racelight Tk

Originally Posted by daveornee
I certainly agree that the Barnett Bicycle Institute chapter isn't perfect or laying out engineering principles.
However, the section of Barnett Chapter 17 "Stabilizing the True" gets to a method that Rolf modified and is most successful for the builds I do in getting the spokes "bedded in" such that the wheels I build stay true (stabilized) better than the spoke squeezing method that Jobst says relieves stress.
The reason why is, that parallel spoke squeezing has nothing to do with removing spoke wind-up. You don't do it to "stabilize true" as Barnett thinks. The "stress" in the spokes stems partly from their manufacturing method partly from the way the are used when building the wheel. Stress relieving is to kind of straighten the spokes to the max, so that all the internal and external "curls" in the spoke are straighten out. (this explanation is somewhat cartoonish).

Spoke quality at leading firms like Sapim and DT Swiss have improved a lot since the 1980's, so even without stress relieving one can build a traditional wheel that with some luck, can last 1000's km's before spoke fatigue sets ind.
Still strongly recommended to do though.

I still think that Barnett's approach is unsound; one should do everything to avoid spoke wind-up (lubrication, backing off spoke key), instead of letting it build up and then trying to remove it by sideloading the wheel.

Barnett claims that there isn't a good way of ensuring that the "backing off" method get rid of all the wind up. Actually there is; put small papertape flags on the spokes and align the flags with the rim. Even tiny amounts of spoke wind-up can be seen that way. Anyway, the argument is wrong, even if the "backing off" method only remove 70% of the spoke wind-up, it will still be much much better than not doing it. My own experience is that the "backing off" method is really effective.


Originally Posted by daveornee
Misinterpretation happens a lot. Barnett's author, you, and I do it.
Agree, we often see what we want to see, and fooling one self is the easiest confidence trick on the planet. That is why I like the scientific method, since it can help against doing so.

Originally Posted by daveornee
Attributing cause and effect are also pitfalls.
I find the illustrations in Jobst's book (at least in the 3rd Edition) and his at least one of his graphs to be totally misleading/incorrect and his method of determining spoke tension to be hazardous to rim life.
I find the lacing illustrations good, but haven't really bothered with graphs so no comment there. Regarding finding the max spoke tension by tightening spokes until the rim "potato chip" slightly, then it is only applicable to a certain class of (common) rims; sub 480 g 32/36H 700c alu rims (or something similar, the book in the the basement) that was the standard racewheel rim when the book was written.
It doesn't hurt such rims or even get them permanently out of true, however very strong rims like Mavic CXP33 with special alloys only "potato chip" at perhaps +150Kgf and therefore put the hub flange at risk, so I agree it isn't a good universal method anymore.
I just bought the Park Tool tensiometer. Not a necessity but it fits my style of building wheels.

Originally Posted by daveornee
I have also never been satisfied with Jobst's explanation of "Stress Relief".
I am not an engineer so I really can't understand his explanation the way an engineer would, but at least all the engineers I know of (including materials specialists) seems to agree with Brandt on this issue.

Originally Posted by daveornee
I will read Roger Musson's eBook some time and see what his approach is. I certainly understand that there are things I can still learn after building more than 1,000 wheels. I think Roger's money back 100% no-risk guarantee will get me reading it sooner than later.
Musson's book is more "cook book" in its style. Probably a better first book to wheel building for most people than Brandt's book. Probably has the best way of measuring rim ERD, hubs and spoke length that I know of. Free updates too of the book, and he frequently improves it. It has a nice DIY tool section for those who wants to build their own wheel truing stand etc. One the better things I learned from it was to carve a notch on my Park Tool spoke key in the direction it faces when tightening the spoke. That way I can easily see or feel which way to turn no matter what way the spoke key is oriented.

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Regards

Last edited by interested; 12-10-08 at 10:04 AM. Reason: Spelling
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