"I have a very nice Heavy 10. I overpaid for it though. It was just one of those things where if I wanted it I had to pay. Of course all the old stuff is so cheap it's crazy, a new Chinese lathe would have cost as much or more, and there really isn't anything as handy from C that I have seen.

You are right about the machines that make the rounds. People buy shapers and horizontals because they are cute, but the first vertical mill they get breaks the bubble. Still, in a small shop a few small tools can come in handy, more set-up angles and options that can mean expensive accessories, and set-up times on a vertical... Of course we are lucky, because a horizontal is really useful for bikes, at least to me.

"I see plenty of newbies that get good help on frameforum. It really depends on how someone presents themselves."

I sincerely agree, and think it is a great resource. But I am less sure about the last part. Just about everything is drawing fire over there these days. I hope it keeps getting better.

In the run of a day of framebuilding 99% of it from sales to brazing is not frame building, it's marketing, metal working, design, book keeping, finance etc... There are literally millions of people who have an equal view. Also out of the thousands of people who clock in, how many are professionals? I just play at it for my own entertainment, and I don't want to talk to experts as much as I want to exchange ideas with folks who are doing it at the same pace and on the same budget as I am. In fact the pro part is of no interest to me, I wish this was a craft, like some, that was largely amateur like sport airplane construction.

If you aren't in it full time you have to leverage the stuff you know, and dig into the stuff you don't know. Just today I was talking with a guy who machines parts in a shop with a 480 ton bridge crane. You never know who you will meet who may contribute to your fund of knowledge. I prefer that kind of learning environment to one with a red carpet mentality. But that is just me, I hang out where I can.