Originally Posted by
Carbonfiberboy
From what TG says in these two threads, the Wound-up with its slightly greater trail should have disposed the bike to increased stoker steer, low speed handling issues, etc. But it was the opposite. Something about the Primera's handling was stimulating my stoker to try to compensate. Whatever that was, it does not exist on our Speedster.
This underscores why steering geometry is so controversial and subjective. There are just so many things that can factor into how a given tandem will handle: set-up, tires/wheels, captain's riding position over the front wheel, stoker anxiety/movement and the like.
If anyone happened to follow our Calfee journal, they may recall when we took delivery of our much anticipated Calfee our high expectations for it's handling and comfort were not met during the early rides with the '08 Rolf wheelset. Like yourself, I was somewhat charitable in my commentary as the handling was downright awful and I couldn't be I'd just spent a small fortune for a tandem that handled worse than a $900 whippy steel import, to wit:
The steering will take a bit of getting used to, which says more about just how much steering trail was used on our Ericksons than anything else. Although it's hard to imagine a tandem with what is essentially the same steering trail as a Co-Motion Supremo or Robusta running an Alpha Q fork feeling sluggish, that's how the Calfee initially felt compared to our Ericksons. Instead of thinking "turn left" like I do on the Erickson which then immediately dives into a corner, the Calfee needed a bit more engagement on my part.
It wasn't until I finally fitted different wheels that the true colors of the frame geometry showed through. It's experiences like that and what I've seen and heard from other teams that makes me sometimes question if folks have the right tandems and/or have their tandems dialed in.
Anyway, getting back to your experience... just coming up the learning curve riding tandems normally goes a very long way towards 'improving' the handling of most subsequent rides by a given team. Some of what you describe on the Primera test ride sounds very much like what I've heard from others who took their very first tandem test ride on a Co-Motion or one of our Erickson tandems. However, subsequent rides on the same or different tandems were usually more successful.
It's possible that your Speedster experience after making the purchase was so successful because of the Primera learning experience and the collective experience you gained as a tandem team coupled with perhaps a better set-up on the Speedster and the ownership / commitment factor that comes along with the purchase of a tandem. Again, expectations and that pride of ownership sometimes have a powerful and positive influence. In the airplane business there's an old saying that's probably not unique to aircraft that goes: good-looking airplane fly good, whereas ugly ones fly ugly. I wanted our Calfee to be so good that I kidded myself into making those first few hundred miles seem better than they really were because that good looking and mega-costly tandem rode ugly, real ugly. Thank goodness we had the resources and experience to pursue a fix and solve the mystery.
Bottom Line: It's not that hard to discuss the mechanics of steering geometry but theory and what 'should be' are meaningless when personal experience and the realities of all the other factors that influence handling come into play.