Last post and then I ride either in or out. At Joe's I talked with one of the guys about keeping the feet warm and how I was unhappy with the chemical toe warmers. He said that they probably don't activate if there is no air flow, shoes too tight over two layers of socks. Makes sense since they are air activated. I'm very close to getting some winter mtb shoes that I would use for both on and off road, just change my road pedals to spd for the winter.

Go Charlie and NoRacer, and probably GBrown, you guys are hardcore! Oh, while at Joe's one of the shop kids showed up on his bike so there are definitely a number willing to go that low.