Originally Posted by fly:yes/land:no

iirc you were on a junior development team last year, too. therefore, everyone on your team was likely pumped up with enough natural testosterone and ego required to make that effort approach race state.

maybe in northern ohio, you have super crazy group rides, but i can tell you that i have never been on a group ride as ruthless and zero-sum as a race. but, maybe i am in the minority here. i will say that in my experience, group rides tend to be two to four hour slug fests where you are approaching your limits every time you take a pull. this might be considered "harder" effort than a race which has lulls and explosions. however i think a race, for all of its more calm moments, has some instances of complete chaos where every pedal stroke requires huge efforts. it is several repeats of those "do or die" efforts that i simply cannot capture in training or on a group ride. if you can, cheers. sincerely, that is a gift.