Okay. In all sincerity, that was helpful. I'll check out that site. Nobody has read that book though huh? I guess what I'm getting at is why do some frame builders make tremendously lousy bikes and others excellent ones? Or at least get that reputation. I figure they all know how to weld or they wouldn't be in the business. That appears to not be the case. Shape is a variable too, but aside from the name, (reputable or crap?), I look for what kind of metal. But I know theres way more to it all than that. I had a Cannondale for awile and that thing rode like an extremely lightweight brick. Every fooking pit in the rode could be felt. Steel seems to be the sheet. This Fondriest I tested out was steel, it was the sheet. But now I've never ridden a carbon fiber frame or anything.