wow stroker you provided me more info on those two bikes then the last four bike shops i have seen. I wanted to get the bikes from the one shop as they still had 08s which were very nicely priced...but if i have to fork out for 09 I will. Appreciate the input, I need to get him trying out several different bikes and have him decide from there. Is it better to get a bike that might be slightly to big or slightly to small. I fit great on a medium and from what i picked up from couple bike shops he seems to be right in between. I am thinking maybe a little to big were he may still grow. Appreciate the input, nicely detailed stroker, if anyone has any recommendation other than those two would love to here it. Also, I am not trying to avoid the stumpjumper for him, I love mine and know it is a good bike, just want him to select one that he is comfortable with other then being led to one. Thanks all.