well, the person who told me about crit frames lead me to believe nobody talks about them anymore because its a "forbidden" topic (and i can see why is it started an 11 page argument). I've seen people hit their pedals during alleycat races in historic downtown, it makes you cringe but its also kinda funny until it happens to you.

but thanks for all the suggestions. and one last thing, 4130 chromoly would be a decent steel to start with right...