Originally Posted by veganwar

I'm just curious based on the frames I have seen. If I recall correctly, both were Ishiwati tubing and had nice lugwork.

In general, I could care less about NJS certified. NJS certification may mean a particular standard - not necessary the best, but certainly not even close to the worst - but when it comes to frames, it is more about employing a frame building method that and a craft and skill not readily available in most frames these days. I'm biased toward lugged frames and but I'm even more so biased toward Italian and English frames.