Guest

I stay to the right, but if there's a circumstance, like the one illustrated above, I take the whole lane. There's no reason for me to endanger myself because cars won't give me room.

Koffee

FOG

Flipping the bird may not be protected speech, but may be disorderly conduct, in the same category as "fighting words." If you really force a law enforcement officer into a situation where he is going to face adverse action if he doesn't cite you for something, it is a good bet he will find something to cite you for. A really good example is if you are pulled over and ask the officer for his badge number, he will comply by putting that number on a citation.

Miracle Whip

Whats the matter, don't you understand short, simplistic instructions. Does everything have to be some long drawn out drama?

You fingered a cop. You should have apologized, agreeed with him and gone on your way.

trekets

Another moronic response that totally misses the point.

anders

Ignore miracle whip. He must be a cop or maybe he thinks we should just do whatever cops say even if they are out of line.

Joyka

I quit giving anyone the finger to anyone after I started riding a bike a lot because I do not want to die prematurely.

rs00

I don't want to die prematurely either, but I find it hard not to get angry biking on the roads with people in cars who think bicyclists don't belong on the road. I don't do it often, but I have "flipped the bird" on occassion. The cop in this case is just flat out wrong.

rs00

If you had read and understood what he wrote that is in effect what he did. The point is that the cops behavior was wrong to begin with and trekets should have filed a complaint. We don't need cops like that on the street.

ghettocruiser

I think if the cop had used his car to run you off the road there would still be *law and order* types in this forum who would say "he's a cop, he's right and you're wrong" anyways. Until he clearly identifies himself as a police officer, he's just another guy honking and yelling in a tailgating car. And I have seen characters in cars and trucks yelling through bull-horns, the use of an amplifier hardly denotes authority.

Allister

I consider myself a reasonably 'law and order' type, but stilll think the cop was out of line. Trekets was doing nothing illegal (except, arguably, for speeding ) and should have been left to his own devices. That is what law and order is about.

Guest

I didn't mention anything about this (forgot), but I do think the officer should be reprimanded for using his authority to push an unnecessary ticket on someone they didn't like. We still have freedom of speech, which also involves freedom of expression, and if the cop is giving a ticket for giving the finger, they definitely need a time out.

Fight the ticket. Make that cop show up in court, and the judge will take it from there. Judges are so good at talking down cops that waste the court's time.

Koffee

closetbiker

I don't think it's quite that clear. It was an unmarked car behind him making noise as he was riding properly and looking forward to concentrate on a fast desent. How was it clear he was a cop? It wasn't until a siren and flashing red lights went on that it was clear it was a cop. Stealth works both ways.

twahl

It's amusing to me that this thread has aroused some very strong "advocacy feelings." He can't fight the ticket because there wasn't one, and the incident was about a year ago. He's a new poster, and I'm sure that having read some of the threads in this forum, he just wanted to share an experience that he had in the past, and get some input as to how others might have dealt with the situation.

In my opinion, giving anyone the finger (let's not say "fingered a cop", please?) is something for which you may have to answer. I let the bird fly occasionally, and I know that one of these days it's going to get me in trouble, either because it was a cop (not likely) or I got my ass beat, or I beat someone's ass over it. No matter what the immediate outcome, if a driver (or anyone else) decides that they don't want to put up with my nonsense, the long term result is going to be some inconvenience or discomfort for me.

There was a thread in the commuter forum a few days ago, dude flew the bird, then when the driver stopped, the cyclist took off in another direction. Do you believe in your rights or not? That's cowardly, to yell or give a vulgar expression then haul ass out of Dodge. That's not standing up for your rights, it's claiming them, then coming back to a bunch of like minded people so that they will bolster your position and make you feel better for taking it. If you're gonna buy trouble, have the cajones to own what you bought. If you don't want to buy trouble, move on.

I try to temper my first reaction. What's the point? Get all worked up and be angry for the rest of the day? Or can I just let it go, knowing that there's nothing I am going to say or do to change the mind of a jackhole, and enjoy my ride? Think he's going to be aggravated about it all day? Why give someone else that kind of power over you?

scarry

Meaning don't ride against traffic on the left.

The law, (same in all 50 states) says as far right as "PRACTICABLE". This means as far right as is safe, (in the view of the rider). At 30 mph or more it would be very unsafe to share a lane with a car, so "taking the lane" would be legal.

A big finger for the a$$hole cop.

Operation on Roadway
21202 (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:
(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
(4) when approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.
(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway or a highway, which highway carries traffic in one direction only and has two or more marked traffic lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of that roadway as practicable.

scarry

Hope he used a latex glove.......

DCCommuter

All too often, "helpful" books like that are written by people who have little knowledge of the law and less knowledge of bicycle safety. Same deal with "helpful" articles in the mainstream media.

Vehicle law is quite complex and cycling law is an arcane subset of it. The only authority I would trust is the actual statute, preferably one that has been annotated with relevant caselaw references. As others have noted, that statement is a gross oversimplification of the rather complex question of where cyclists may legally ride on the roadway.

closetbiker

You can cite, "Regina vs. Balyi", to show that the definition of "practicable" in the Motor Vechile Act depends on circumstances and does not automatically mean hugging the curb. This was a case in British Columbia, but the decision can be used thoughout North America because of the general application of the rules of the road contained in the Motor vehicle Act.

In court, provicial Judge Marlene Whelan said, what is practicable in one block and situation may not be in another.

trekets

I usually try to stay calm as well, but it can be difficult. I bicycle about 10k a year, a good portion of it on busy roads and despite doing my best to "share the road", I am amazed at how often I meet up with irrate drivers who do not think I should be on the road at all. I have had truck drivers attempt to push me off the road. I have had people spit at me, throw garbage at me and I was hit by a car once.

I have also had other more recent incidents with the police. In one incident I was pulled over and told by a cop that I was not allowed to bicycle on a road. The cop was not very polite but at least he controlled his temper. I pulled out the New Jersey bicycle law which I carry in my bag and proved to him that I was allowed on that road.

And in another case in Englewood, NJ while bicycling on the left of a lane while about to make a left hand turn in heavy traffic I was stopped by a cop who said I should have been on the right shoulder and should have gotten off of my bicycle at the intersection and waited until the light changed to cross as a pedestrian. This cop was actually very nice. He was young and new and he was just ignorant of the law.

But how can we expect law enforcement to protect the rights of bicyclists when they do not know the law? A year later I am still bothered by the "finger incident" because of the cops reaction. I think it is important to discuss issues like this because they are all too common.

hollow

I don't know about Canadian law, but we American hotheads can take comfort knowing that we cannot be prosecuted for making obscene gestures at anyone, including police officers. The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals got involved in this pressing issue in 1990 and preserved our right to be as obscene as we want to be(well, probably not that obscene). The case was Duran v. City of Douglas and involved someone flipping the bird at a cop.

closetbiker

Yup, here it is

https://www.kena.net/iyf/courts/docs/duran.htm

"If there is one irreducible minimum in our Fourth Amendment jurisprudence, it is that a police officer may not detain an individual simply on the basis of suspicion in the air."

Yes, a cop can be held liable, if the cop's conduct "violated clearly established constitutional protections."

...Aguilar observed a car with a passenger who was directing an obscene gesture toward him through an open window...Aguilar then told Duran that the reason for the traffic stop was to find out why Duran had yelled profanities and made an obscene gesture toward him...there are well-defined limits on what police officers may do in discharging their duties, and police may be held liable for acting outside these limits. Perhaps the most fundamental of these is the requirement that the police not interfere with the freedom of private persons unless it be for specific, legitimate reasons...But disgraceful as Duran's behavior may have been, it was not illegal; criticism of the police is not a crime...the stop and detention was illegal and may be the subject of liability...The freedom of individuals to oppose or challenge police action verbally without thereby risking arrest is one important characteristic by which we distinguish ourselves from a police states...were police free to detain and question people based only on their hunch that something may be amiss - we would hardly have a need for the hundreds of founded suspicion cases the federal courts decide every year, for we would be living in a police state where law enforcement officers, not the courts, would determine who gets stopped and when.

kf5nd

In my jurisdiction, a gesture or obscenity could be a misdemeanor. A ticket and a fine.

tomcat

Question from above quote:......"Do you have the right to not be verbally abused? "

Answer: Unless you are an child or impaired adult, I do not know of any laws that protect you from being verbally abused.


Just recently, on my ride home.....as I approach this particular intersection, I have to start riding vehicularily in order to "protect" my space as I ride thru. As I was moving from the far right toward the middle of my lane (I even had my hand out to indicate my move) this arsehole in a car speeds up and immediately came between me and the curb...nearly missing me by inches. I was livid!! As I came back up beside this guy I began to give him a piece of my mind and he got all upset that I was talking to him in that manner....rather than admit his error and apologize. He said I was "acosting him", whatever that means?? So he threatens to call the cops and picks up his cell phone. I said...."Go right ahead, I'll wait right here for the cop to give him my story". Well....after waiting about 20 minutes..the cops finally shows up. The cop just shook his head when the guy gave his side of the story. The car driver came off like some child screaming to the teacher that Johnnie talked bad to me...wha wha wha. I told the cop my side and he agreed that I should be pissed but he couldn't do anything since he hadn't witnessed the incident.

Bottom line is that if you get your arse chewed out, it ain't no crime. So, unless you are legally protected as a child or impaired adult...... "sticks and stones can break your bones, but words can never hurt you"....legally speaking.


tommy

trekets

Thanks for this post. This was very interesting. I particularly enjoyed, "But disgraceful as Duran's behavior may have been, it was not illegal; criticism of the police is not a crime...the stop and detention was illegal and may be the subject of liability...The freedom of individuals to oppose or challenge police action verbally without thereby risking arrest is one important characteristic by which we distinguish ourselves from a police states..."

anders

But my question is this? Was it a crime for the cop to pull over a bicyclist who gave him the finger? Did he have a right to detain the bicyclist and "chew his arse" out over such nonsense? Maybe the cop was having a bad day, but he should be suspended for taking it out on an innocent bicyclist. And the cop should learn the law, especially as it relates to bicycling. I know cops have a tough job, but they should be held to a high standard when it comes to maintaining control of their emotions. Trekets shouldn't have given him the finger, but he didn't know it was a cop and it wasn't illegal in any case. He was doing the right thing by taking up the lane for the road conditions he was on at the time.

tomcat

It probably was against police conduct standards but I do not know if it was against the law. Since he didn't give a ticket, I'd maybe just make a complaint to his boss and let it go.

tommy