I totally agree, except for the being at the mercy of motorists from the rear part. With a proper mirror, gear, and lane position, and constant monitoring, (vs. fat and happy and stupid) we actually have plenty of control of our situation.

Sometimes, being "in the way" is unavoidable. Like most cyclists, I plan my routes and my ride times to avoid traffic. Once I do all this (and more, none of which is required) I offer no apology for sometimes being momentarily in the way of other road users. I'm just another part of traffic.

Maybe if more cyclists avoided allowing motorists to dictate when and where they can ride on the road, cyclists could be more common and even safer... even though it's not really as risky as some make it out to be out there now.

There seems to be a lot of fear of what "might" happen if one rides on certain roads, or in certain situations. Just thinking about it we all can conjure up all kinds of deadly scenarios. I've done it myself. Thankfully, the reality of what really happens is much different.

That is very true, which is why I choose to be pragmatic rather than dogmatic.

So, do you also think that The Independent UK news that YOU provided the link to is also fake news?
Do you believe the drivers firing is also fake?
Van driver caught swerving into cyclist in helmet-cam video | The Independent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Independent

Maybe you are not a real person, just fake since you posted the news article.:twitchy:

Yes, that's the point. I'm even thinking of having a fishing float ball dangling on the end to push the message home.

I pretty much agree. I just figured if the OP wanted to spin it and try to paint the cyclist using the lane "As part of the problem" it's fair game to turn the tables and dish it right back to him. :D Hay, A&S entertainment and all. :)


But I do believe a valid argument could be made that cyclists doing everything they can to stay out of the way of motorists (including taking on more risk) aren't really helping cyclists in the big picture.


Yet there are plenty of cyclists who others would label "Dogmatic" who are out there riding all sorts of roads and conditions with little or no problems. Go figure. Good for them, I say, I'll gladly cheer them on.

In my experience, location is a significant factor, and there's places where one can ride as they choose with little or no problem, therefore its a placebo rather than a cure.

From what I've seen, virtually no cyclists ride dogmatically as some imply they do, or how they think others should here on BF. I think a lot of what we see here, on both sides, is simply over simplification to save time when posting, and folks trying to assure themselves that they have things figured out and are in control.

Thanks, Kickstart.

On the other hand there are folks (not you) who seemingly toss their hands up and say there's simply nothing we can do to take control of our safety... Drivers will do whatever they want, so it's best to just stay out of their way at all costs. This is not a workable plan in my area or experience. Much better to ride large and take charge. <-- This doesn't mean I can't move right when safe and reasonable to do so! But I refuse to live and die there. I'm just glad I have it all figured out. :p

From what I've seen a large percentage of cyclists are too timid for their own good, and actually increase their risk.

"Drivers will do whatever they want, so it's best to just stay out of their way at all costs."

Again, I ask, why is bad driving an acceptable norm?

Can't wait for self-driving cars.

To answer your question... "because so many have done it for so long..." But indeed, that doesn't make it right... and the fact that LE somewhat turns a blind eye to all but the worst offenses doesn't help a bit.

It's a cultural thing too. Independence, and not playing by the rules is admired, and condoned by many. Even here on BF, suggesting a cyclist should obey all laws will make that person the target of derision by some. Drivers and motorcyclist are no different.

As a motorist who likes to adhere to the posted speed limit I can vouch for this. I've had friends and family poke fun at me for doing so, even though my driving record is spotless and theirs isn't. :innocent:

Oh, so true. It's almost as if folks take pride in NOT obeying the traffic law.

we have elected him Leader

I agree. Riding along in the middle of the road may be legal but it's also unwise IMO, far too many psycho drivers out there. Mind you if they want to do it I'm happy to watch the videos and have a laugh.

He was probably measuring the distance to see if it was legal :lol:

I don't know about driving forums, but it's an attitude displayed on every cycling, and motorcycling forum I've visited.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-18/survey-finds-bicyclists-and-motorists-ignore-traffic-laws-similar-rates

You mentioned psycho drivers. How many fatalities do we have each year where a raging psycho takes out a cyclist taking the lane?

How many rear end fatalities do we have each year where the cyclist is well right and the vehicle sideswipes or runs over the cyclist because they didn't see the cyclist or they made a judgement error on their distance from the cyclist?

There is not a definitive answer to those questions, but our limited data points to the latter as the larger problem. When I employ my risk management strategies, I develop them for the greater threat.

There have been some quite notable collisions where a psycho driver takes out a group of cyclists... :eek:

I am not being purposefully obtuse here, but I am struggling to understand your point.

My point being that if a lone cyclist taking the lane is so visible, why is it that there have been some quite notable collisions of groups of cyclists... Or even such things as garbage trucks... being hit from behind.

Take the lane when you need to, but be aware that there are drivers out there that won't see a giant trash truck, much less a small peloton, or a single rider.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that either risk mitigation strategy was foolproof, only that we should look at the available accident data, and use it to guide us on how to mitigate the greater risk.

Yeah, tend to agree... but I doubt there is really good collision data for cyclists... based on the generally poor reporting (record keeping) that is often done in such cases.

Frankly I tend to believe a good cyclist has lots and lots of options in their cycling toolbox... from "full and legit to the letter cycling," to "ninja," to "messenger," and all the variants and combinations in between. It just takes experience to be able to figure out what to do when, to avoid bad situations...

And the last thing we need is to be dogmatic about believing one way is better than another.

We really cannot expect motorists to watch for us... in spite of the fact that we are legitimate users of the road.

However, to the OP, I really do not believe we are "part of the problem," as "the problem" tends to be impatient motorists that believe we should not be on "their road." Clearly the biggest delay for drivers, is other cars, not cyclists. Perhaps the only exception to the above, is a cyclist that chooses to dogmatically take the lane when other options could be exercised. Of course the flip side to that is the motorist that dogmatically feels they own the lane, when other options could be exercised.

Dean,

I am in complete agreement. We may be in the minority I think though. You are correct, there are roads where we just should not ride when it's rush-hour, or heavy traffic, or no room for cars and bikes. Find a different route. I've seen a lot of bad things in my 50 years of road cycling. It some ways it's gotten better over the years and in other ways it's become a lot worse. Some cyclists, in my opinion, have this chip on their shoulder that tells them they can do anything they want. I've seen it, witnessed it, cursed at it, tried to reason with it, most often to no avail.

And yes, we have the same right to be on the road as cars but that does not give cyclist license to an a55. Taking up an entire road is being an a55. Taking up an entire lane in 5 o'clock traffic is being an a55. I used to commute to work. And yes, I had to be on the road during 5 o'clock traffic but I found alternate routes to purposefully avoid the traffic. It was not just for being considerate, it was for my own safety. I'm very selfish in that regard so I don't ride on heavy traffic roads.


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