rumrunn6

cpl times had to tell the boys in our town to buckle the strap. apparently it's cool to ride w a helmet unbuckled

KD5NRH

Gee, y'think?

Putting them on a narrow MUP makes about as much sense as having them learn on a unicycle on a tightrope.

Put them on an empty parking lot, basketball court or tennis court until they can hold a steady line, and handle turns with reasonable accuracy.

asmac

I checked out this location yesterday. Sadly easy to find due to the roadside memorial.


It's a slight downhill section. and I can easily imagine a young kid wobbling out of control as he accelerates.


Here's a link to a short video shot yesterday, a quiet Saturday. Lakeshore is a busy three-lane road (often bumper-to-bumper) with a speed limit of 60kph or about 37mph.


https://1drv.ms/f/s!ApEFCjmDdSBQiY917waiEL6Vsgrkfg

mr_bill

Pretty much entire nations disagree with you two.
(And in this nation, every family out on bicycles makes me smile.)

FWIW, if you can't safely ride a bicycle in the presence of 5-year olds on bicycles, you can't safely ride a bicycle.

But go ahead, blame the victim, it's what "we" do.

"...much too busy...
...to worry about our little children...
....save me...
...from this God forsaken place."

(With appologies to Bobby Charles.)

-mr. bill

genec

Yup, gotta agree there... as I said earlier: "Any users of any transportation facilities, be they sidewalks, MUPs, paths, horse trails, or just plain old streets, is responsible for not hitting or colliding with those in front of them."

phoebeisis

Perhaps you know something about the accident that isn't in the article?

Are they claiming someone "pushed/bumped" him off line?
You folks think this was a safe situation?
This kid was barely more than a toddler-on a mixed use path -next to a high speed road-with a freakin CURB to dump you into the traffic if you brush it a bit?
Only a FOOL would have his 5yo ride on this MUP!! With people of all ages skill levels speeds -spandexed folks oldsters-near Toddlers-and FOOLS

[U]The boy had been on the cycling path along Lake Shore Boulevard shortly before 6:15 p.m. His bike shot forward and the boy fell onto the road, Stibbe said. He was then hit by a silver Toyota Camry.[/U]

CliffordK

I have to agree with others. That path is just wicked, and an accident waiting to happen. But, I'm trying to think what could be done better. A curb for the cyclists would be nice. Jersey Barriers?

Most MUPS around here have some greenway or a ditch separating them from the road. But there are some places where they go parallel to a road, sometimes separated by a Jersey barrier, but I believe not always. I'm trying to think of what kind of protection was put up on the new multi-million dollar Sellwood bridge in Portland. I'll check it out the next time I go up there, but I don't think there was any protection for the path crossing the bridge (just a very wide path on the new bridge, the old bridge path was too narrow)

In Toronto, are there some off-street paths along there? Perhaps going through parks?

Personally, I think a kid might be better suited to a section of a MUP that goes through a park. But each kid is different. Some 5 yr olds have been riding for years. Other 8 year olds are just learning to ride. Some have had many hours, others are just starting.

I've passed many kids on bikes of various sizes (as well as dogs, strollers, walkers, and other people). One just learns to slow down when cycling around them. And hopefully they don't run you over. But, the issue in Toronto,of course, is a road design that allowed a kid to exit from the MUP and into traffic (probably crashing when going over the curb).

Sometimes there aren't a lot of alternatives though, and the path may have been the only option for the trip that was planned.

asmac

There's a wide variety of paths which vary depending on the situation and age. In the video I posted you'll see a sidewalk coming up from the right. It bypasses most (not all) of that section but is steeper. This area is definitely a pinch point. Aside from the issue of being next to a major road, in this area the trail passes several busy parking lot entrances which present their own problems.


Putting up a barrier has its own risks; I can imagine being pushed into it and flipping right over it or whacking your head. There's no perfect answer.


Anyhow, it was bike-to-work day so the mayor is on the case. Much fretting and gnashing of teeth but I'm afraid it's all a day late and a dollar short.

CliffordK

Late for this one. But perhaps there is a way to prevent the next one. It does bring up a few things to consider when retrofitting bike paths into urban environments already packed with cars. Not to mention, it is nice to get away from the cars every once in a while. There did appear to be quite a steady stream of bikes in the short clip.

It would take a lot to accidentally hop a jersey barrier. An accident that threw one over one would certainly have been bad enough throw a person into the middle of the street. Unless one was doing skateboard tricks

I think in Portland, there's a section of path that was put on a wharf/bridge along the river. Anyway, building out on the water is an option for a congested area along a waterway, although docks and harbors could be a problem. Also a way to get around public/private land ownership issues.

indyfabz

Maybe.

phoebeisis

Waaaaay back when-
"little kids" had training wheels on their bikes
Yeah there is plenty of downside to training wheels
But at least it was an acknowledgement that "little kids" were too young to properly control 2 wheel bikes

1)They don't have the co-ordination
2) and sure as heck don't have the JUDGEMENT
Crude guess is plenty of kids were hurt because they HAD training wheels- and could "ride"-so they managed to crash into trees-run into streets-bike sellers were sued for the training wheels


I don't care how many countries put their near toddlers on bikes in crowds of bike riders next to busy streets-
they all have S for brains
so do the fools who plop their infant on the back of their bikes-

noimagination

This pretty much sums it up for me (wrt the title of the post). We complain that motorists won't share the road with us, and that motorists just want us to get the h*ll out of their way. Then, we get bike lanes, MUPs, or the like, and we whine and complain about slower cyclists, kids, runners, roller bladers, etc. using the bike lane/MUP and want the other users to get the h*ll out of our way.

Sartre had a point.

---------------

rumrunn6

was en-route to a sales call one time. driving down this local road. there's a daycare of sorts on a hill to my left. there's a massive dump truck approaching from the opposite direction. we're both going slow, like maybe 20 mph. a kid at the daycare rides a bike or trike (I forget which) past what looked like a minor bush-like border to the daycare yard & flies down the hill toward the street. hits the road & crashes in the roadway near that shoulder. kid is wearing a helmet. massive dump truck saw my hitting the brakes, then saw the kid. dump truck comes to a stop 2" from the kids helmeted skull. lady from daycare comes screaming down the hill. I drive off as she lifts the alive kid from the roadway, left to deal with her near death situation. I'm sure the truck driver couldn't see where his wheel stopped & where the kid's head was. if he did, he'd have said a prayer in thanks. wonder if they ever installed a freaking fence for the day care

JoeyBike

There is no shortage of parents who are oblivious to dangerous situations and their children. I guess some black humor would state that there isn't any shortage of children either. Part of the balance of life not too very long ago was infant and child mortality keeping population in check, which isn't really a "bad" thing in a natural world. So as far as the safety of other people (and their children) go...I really don't care outside of the fact that I do not want to be the one doing the population control by accident. Otherwise, those kids are NOT my responsibility in any way. (I did save a toddler from drowning in a lake once, so I am partly full of **** here).

asmac

Roads and paths have a purpose. Because they are 'public' does not mean that anyone should expect to meander around as they wish without regard for other users desire to get from a to b in an efficient and safe manner. That's why there are rules governing how various users can access public facilities, if they're allowed any access at all.

Slower users are one thing but completely unpredictable users are not welcome and should go elsewhere for everyone's benefit.

OBoile

That's an unreasonable expectation. The driver was not at fault here.

OBoile

I agree somewhat. What blame there is here, belongs with the parents as they clearly made a mistake.

Having said that, sometimes stuff just happens. No one is perfectly safe and we never will be. The kid could have died walking down the stairs at his house. This sounds more like a freak, unlucky, accident rather than anything that is blameworthy.

bikemig 

+ 1 on all of this.

OBoile

Agreed. It's not an infrastructure issue. I road on that stretch today commute. It's perfectly safe if you know how to ride a bike in a straight line (and if you don't, you likely shouldn't be on a busy MUP). This was an extremely low probability event that occurred. It's not sound logic to let a freak accident drive infrastructure spending. This would be an emotional decision, not a rational one.

There literally hundreds of stretches of bike lanes (including some on my commute) that are more dangerous than this one. Those should be getting whatever money there is first.

OBoile

Exactly!

noimagination

There are paths, and there are paths. Perhaps there are paths that are primarily designed for cycling, or transportation, or the like, I wouldn't know. The MUPs that I've ridden on are exactly that - multi-purpose, used by walkers, roller bladers, kids with training wheels, dog walkers, etc. It would be completely unreasonable for anyone using those paths to get from point A to point B to expect everyone else to get out of their way. That's what roads are for.

I took my kids on such paths when they were on training wheels. I did my best to make sure they were considerate of other users, but to expect a 5 year old to act better than the adults who were wandering around, walking dogs, chatting with friends, having a good time, is silly.

The MUPs I'm familiar with were built using public funds, and are open to all. My use of the path doesn't take precedence over anyone else's. You seem to think that the purpose of the path is for transportation. Another user might not agree. I have no idea what it's like where you are, so I have no opinion as to who is right. However, if one wants to go fast and can't because of the danger to other users, they have two choices: 1) slow down, or 2) use the street. I have no patience with anyone who feels that the safety of others is subordinate to their rush to get somewhere (the "get the h*ll out of my way" syndrome), whether that person is operating a motor vehicle or a bike. I have no idea why the "unpredictable" user is there, and I have no idea why they're being unpredictable. Why not give the person a break? What does it cost me to slow down and pass safely?

Sometimes we, as cyclists, are stunningly blind to our hypocrisy.

--------------

genec

Absolutely true... especially that last sentence.

OBoile

Exactly. I have no problems going around slower users (I'm not that fast myself). But, if you can't ride consistently in a straight line, you shouldn't be on a busy path. It's not safe for you, and it's not safe for the people around you. Cyclists are going to be regularly passing this kid, both in the way he's going and the opposite direction. What happens if he loses control and swerves in front of one of those? These parents obviously overestimated their child's ability to ride. That, plus some bad luck and you get this tragedy. Any other time/place and it could have been "5 year old loses control and hits pedestrian".

1989Pre 

Thank you for being considerate and moderating your speed. It could have been a significant factor in cueing the truck driver that something was amiss.

genec

Ever see cattle herded on a roadway? Completely legal (in many areas of the west) and quite unpredictable...

But I do agree that parents should really keep a rein on their children... at least as a minimum, to ensure their safety.