genec

The argument: The typical result:

Should bike owners have to pay a licensing fee to ride on city streets? | The Seattle Times

Do note, Seattle is one of the few cities in the US with a mandatory helmet law for all cyclists.

Between the call for licensing and the mandatory helmet law... one might think Seattle doesn't want cyclists on the already crowded streets.

SClaraPokeman

I read the ST article and I believe there's now way that implementing a city licensing requirement really makes any sense. For one, what if someone from Bellevue rides across the 90 bridge into Seattle. Are the cops supposed to pull him over b/c there's no visible license on his bike? Will harried parents whose kids have bikes have to worry about whether registration fees have been sent in? I think the real goal of people pushing such a proposal is to discourage riding or express resentment towards those who do. It really doesn't make any sense to want to see even more cars on the road.

genec

Exactly... and of course the only people that want such a scheme are motorists that are typically overloading the roads anyway (one passenger per big vehicle...) and rather than realize that the problem is too many cars, they point fingers at everyone/everything else.

atbman

WARNING! Long post. A copy of a Toronto city examination of licensing riders and bikes:
Works and Emergency Services - David C. Kaufman, P.Eng., Acting Commissioner
City Hall, 24th Floor East Tower, 100 Queen Street West, Toronto, Ontario, M5H 2N2
History of Bicycle Licensing in Toronto:
· The City of Toronto required bicycles to be licensed and to display a licence plate in 1935. The by-law was repealed in 1956.
· In the past 20 years licensing cyclists and/or bicycles has been investigated on at least three occasions by the City:
· Ø 1984 – concern with bicycle theft
· Ø 1992 – concern with sidewalk cycling and compliance with Highway Traffic Act (HTA)
· Ø 1996 - concern with sidewalk cycling and compliance with Highway Traffic Act (HTA)
· In the three instances described above, City Council rejected licensing cyclists/bicycles for a variety of reasons, including:
· the high cost to develop and administer a licensing program;
· the difficulty in dealing with cyclists crossing the municipal boundary into the City;
· the challenge of licensing children as well as adults
· lack of support by the Toronto Police Service and the Ontario Ministry of Transportation.
Two Kinds of Licence:
It is important to distinguish between the two different kinds of licence and their different purposes.
· Vehicle Licence – to put a licence plate on a bicycle for easier identification, either for theft prevention or traffic law enforcement.
· Operator Licence – to ensure that cyclists achieve a minimum level of knowledge and competence before being permitted on the roadway.
Reasons for Licensing Cyclists and/or Bicycles:
· Licensing cyclists and/or bicycles is most frequently proposed as a means to:
· prevent bicycle theft or to assist in returning a stolen bicycle to its owner;
· improve compliance with the law by cyclists;
· assist the public to report cyclists who have committed HTA or municipal by-law infractions; and enable police officers to ticket cyclists who have committed traffic offences.
Bicycle Licence is Ineffective in Preventing Theft:
· Developing and maintaining a bicycle licence system would be a costly undertaking – there are more than 2,000,000 bicycles owned by City of Toronto residents.
· Bicycle licensing has proven ineffective as a means to prevent theft because a licence plate or decal is easily removed.
· Most North American cities which at one time required bicycles to be licensed, including the former City of Toronto, have discontinued their programs. Many of these programs charged a small registration fee intended to offset the cost of administering the program.
· Toronto Police Service provide a free service to register bicycle serial numbers so that stolen bicycles can be identified and returned to their owner, if recovered by police.
Increasing Enforcement of Cyclist Infractions Does Not Require Licensing of Cyclists:
· Cyclists are subject to the same HTA rules and fines as drivers.
· At the request of the City of Toronto, the Province of Ontario amended the Highway Traffic Act in 1989 to require cyclists to identify themselves when stopped by a police officer, to aid in effective enforcement.
· A cyclist or bicycle licence is not required in order for a cyclist to be charged under the HTA or Municipal By-law.
· Toronto police can and do enforce traffic rules for cyclists, including at least one “Cycle Right” campaign in the Spring of each year.
· There is a perception that having a licence plate on the back of a bicycle would enable citizens to report errant cyclists and have the police issue a ticket, however:
· Ø a licence plate identifies the vehicle not the vehicle operator;
· Ø a ticket is issued to the vehicle operator not the vehicle (red light camera violations are the exception - provincial legislation was enacted to enable red light camera offences to be issued against the vehicle owner rather than the driver).
· There is a perception that the police do not ticket cyclists often enough or as often as they could, however the police must balance their limited traffic enforcement resources against competing enforcement needs. For example, there is an average of 68,700 reported motor vehicle collisions every year in the City of Toronto – bicycles are involved in 1.8 percent of those reported collisions.
· Licensing cyclists is not likely to change the priority bicycle enforcement receives vis-a-vis other enforcement priorities.
· If police bicycle-enforcement resources are to be increased, it would be more effective for police officers to focus on increased enforcement of the existing traffic rules for cyclists rather than enforcing compliance with a licensing requirement.
Improving Cyclist Compliance with Traffic Rules is the Main Objective:
· Requiring cyclists to pass a written and road test to obtain a licence to operate a bicycle on the road would ensure a minimum level of knowledge and competence for all cyclists.
· Requiring a bicycle operator's licence without a knowledge and skills test as a prerequisite would not achieve any safety benefit and could be perceived as a user fee.
· Establishing and maintaining a testing and licensing program would be a massive undertaking – there are 939,000 cyclists age 16 and older in the City (data for younger cyclists is not available).
· Requiring a cyclist operating licence raises a number of questions, including:
· Ø How do you develop licensing requirements for both adults and children?
· Ø Do you prohibit cycling on the road for cyclists under a certain age?
· Ø Are occasional cyclists, who may ride primarily on pathways, subject to the same requirements as frequent cyclists who ride primarily on the road?
· Ø Can cyclists from other jurisdictions (tourist and residents of adjacent municipalities) be expected to obtain a licence to use City of Toronto roads?
· Previous investigations into licensing have concluded that, if cyclists are to be licensed, it should be the responsibility of the Ontario Ministry of Transportation (MTO) - similar to drivers' licences.
· In 1992 and 1996, the City asked MTO to comment on the feasibility of licensing cyclists. MTO responded in 1992 by stating that it would cost $24.80 per cyclist (same cost as licensing drivers) to operate a licensing program, not including the database or program development costs.
· While it appears there is potential to generate revenue from a bicycle or cyclist licensing program, if the cost is too high many cyclists will not comply. In order for the program to be effective, strict and consistent enforcement of the licensing requirement will be required. This could divert the limited enforcement resources away from enforcing the existing traffic rules for cyclists.
· In 1996 MTO advised the City that the Ministry did not support a provincial bicycle licensing scheme because “such schemes, apart from being administratively and financially burdensome, do not increase bicycle safety practices…”
· Both MTO and the Toronto Police Service have advised, in the past, that education and enforcement are more cost-effective means to improve cyclist knowledge, skills and general compliance with traffic rules.
Conclusions:
· Bicycle licences are not effective in preventing bicycle theft;
· A cyclist operating licence is not required for police officers to enforce the existing traffic rules;
· Developing a cyclist testing and licensing system would be expensive and divert attention from enforcing the existing traffic rules for cyclists;
· Providing more resources for cyclist education and training and increased police enforcement would be a more cost-effective approach for improving safety.
If Council wishes to pursue a City of Toronto bicycle or cyclist licensing program, the Municipal Licensing and Standards Division of Urban Development Services would be responsible for developing and operating such a program. Any proposal to test and license cyclists should be developed in consultation with the Ontario Ministry of Transportation.
Prepared by: Daniel Egan, Manager, Pedestrian and Cycling Infrastructure,
Transportation Infrastructure Management, Transportation Services
(416-392-9065)
Circulated to: Works Committee Members
Date: December 23, 2004

rydabent

Bicycle licences are really pretty dumb, and only is a tool for B'crats robbing the population of more of their money.

JIMBETHYNAME

Poughkeepsie ny has a law that all bikes with wheels larger than 20" must be registered with the po po.
They can legally take youur bike away if yoou dont have a sticker on it if you are a city resident

rydabent

The police have better things to do than chase down little 5 year old Susie to see if she has a license on her bike.

rydabent

What do they do if you are a cross country cyclist and are just riding thru their fine gestapo city********************??

JIMBETHYNAME

They will stop you and ask for i d.
Ive seen them take 2 of my next door neighbors ghetto cruisers one morning and they were there for something else.
I think you need to be riding kinda recklessly to get stopped. I never have been but a friend has downtown

I-Like-To-Bike

Wow! This troll thread managed to elicit from you two of your favorite all purpose banal clichés (little 5 year old Susie and B'crats robbing the population) and all within the first six responses! Congrats to the OP and yourself.

genec

Troll thread? It was in the freaking news... hardly a troll item?

Daniel4

I wouldn't mind bicycle licenses provided all of the following are offered:

1) paid by motorists during drivers licence and plate renewals;
2) no fault- all fault automatically attributed to the nearest motorist(s);
3) municipal, provincial and federal tax breaks;
4) perks offered by merchants and hotels on top of other promotions and membership prices you already are entitled.

genec

Well the first item would never happen... as it is, it is motorists that are making the claims that cyclists should be licensed... so for motorists to pay for the license would really cause tension.

On the other hand, if it would make bicyclists "legitimate road users" in the minds of motorists... I too would not mind paying for a license... as long as was based on the weight and year of my "vehicle."

Daniel4

Don't like the conditions? Don't licence bicycles. Simple.

genec

Post number 4 covers it... and what typically happens. The link in the OP also mentions what usually happens...

And the whole thing started because yet again, in spite of a long history, someone brings up to a city council the idea of licensing cyclists.

CliffordK

Our local PD has a voluntary program where they'll register the serial number and affix a sticker to the bike indicating that.

Our local college campus also had some type of bike registration, although I don't remember if it was required. 87 must have been the year I changed from on-campus housing to off-campus housing, and thus more likely the bike would be parked on campus.

Anyway, I could imagine an outreach program. Perhaps charge a nominal one-time charge of $5 to register the serial numbers, along with a basic bike safety check/information.

ColnagoStickers2.jpg

They'd have to dig pretty deep into the records to find my bike Would anybody still think it was the same owner from 30 to 35 years ago?

CliffordK

Keeping a database of serial numbers would certainly help with recovery of stolen property.

If you go to Stolen Bike Registry, I bet there are 10x as many bikes recovered by the PD and reunited with their owners if they had a serial number vs those that did not have it. Of course, there are also those that are incidentally found by looking for it in classifieds independent of the serial number.

A national bke registration program might help a bit with theft, if there was no way to re-register bikes. But, the whole program would be very costly and very intrusive. Who checks a registration with a bike ID?

I-Like-To-Bike

Somebody, somewhere proposing something silly like this is ALWAYS in the news, especially if you spend time on the Internet looking for it.

What kind of responses were you expecting to elicit other than the same old, same old that areconstantly being posted on this site in response to goof ball proposals; this one being a rehash of a Seattle requirement that was repealed by that city 40 years ago?

AlmostTrick

We were happy to license our bikes when we were kids almost 50 years ago. The plates came in a box of cereal.

seafood

Licensing and registration are different things. The former applies to people and the latter to vehicles.

People can be licensed as a way to enforce road users' responsible behavior. In some places, I'd love to see more policing of all road users in general. NYC is a cesspool of ****ty driving and riding. I wish it could get better through enforcement, better infrastructure, and better education. I'm sure there are many other regions with their own unique challenges that could benefit from a better driving and riding culture. Since we already have driver licensing in the US, if we were serious about it, we could use the same system for bicycles. Perhaps give points on your license for serious infractions. Maybe require licenses on certain roads.

Registration can help track vehicles by putting hurdles in front of black markets. Both help with tax revenues, I suppose. Registration requires quite a bit of standardization across regions and manufacturers. It's a lot harder to track vehicles if they don't have serial numbers stamped on critical parts. Bicycles don't have a serial number system and there's no buy-in across different geographic regions. Seems like a really tough thing to implement with little potential gain. Of course there could be a voluntary registration program to help with stolen properly recovery, but I think most stolen bikes get parted out so the benefits seem marginal.

rydabent

This is a public forum for anyone to express their opinion, and I did. It how ever is not for someone to attack another member.

CliffordK

Most bicycles do have serial numbers.

A few homebuilt bikes, and some bikes from before about 1980 don't have them, but those are rare now,and it is easy enough for a PD to assign a number and imprint it.

Modern VIN numbers are pretty rigid in the design, but that wasn't always the case with some older cars having serial numbers that are only a few digits long. The VIN numbers shouldn't duplicate between manufactures, but serial numbers might. But, one can normally ID a car by brand+serial number. Some bikes are harder to determine the brand.

The bigger problem with bikes is people who either don't know their serial numbers (registration would help), or thieves stripping bikes and selling parts (registration won't help).

rydabent

Look at the new thread where it tell us that Oregon that has no sales tax in now going to tax new bike sales $15. This from a state that claims to be green. The thread notes that the state says it should realize over a million dollars in additional revenue. Tell me the b'crats in that state are not looking for any source of tax money they can spend as they see fit.

The fools need to be asked-------------are you for a green society or for more tax money. Also------------why pick on bicycles**********??

JIMBETHYNAME

I just dont pay it any mind.
FTP
I do want a mini velo, though.

genec

The serial number of my favorite bike has my initials in it... the bike was custom built for me from the BB on up.