canklecat

FFS, adablduya, did you read the original post? Or any of the followups from the OP? It's all explained.

And you posted opinions before actually watching the video?

This is why we can't have nice things.

adablduya

whatever. someone comes after me with his/her car ? gets out and starts an attack ?? all bets are off. if i have to beat this MFer to within an inch of his life such that i am satisfied he's no longer a threat, that's how it will go.


so, what would you do ? let him beat your ass like he did the OP ?

adablduya

where are you getting that i posted opinions before watching the video ? i didn't need to watch this video to know that in a situation such as this, that there is little to no difference in self-defense and beating this geezer to a pulp.

and that the hell does that mean, "we can't have nice things" ?

and just to make you sleep better tonight, i'll go back and read all 4 pages of posts.....

AndrewHenle

He tossed my bike about a minute after we both stopped at the intersection and he got out of his car to attack me.

It didn't even occur to me as he approached to use my bike as a shield. I didn't have much time to think.

I don't think it would have been a good idea, given my lack of footing. Had I tried holding the bike between us, that would have given him something solid to hold on to. Once he grabs my bike, how do I prevent him from using it as a lever against my lack of footing? Let go of it?

And cowering? Nah. By the end of the video he was demanding/begging that I let go of him. And that was Round 2, where I only had one hand to use since I was trying to film him and holding my cell phone in my left hand.

Well, again, without solid footing the bike gives him something solid to hold on to.

Well, yeah. It's easy to say what you would do until you have to deal with a real situation.

JoeyBike

That is pretty harsh man. Not everyone is an action freak. Likely the dude was packing heat too IMO.

That being said, the instant he put his hand on me would be the telling one. Could go either way with me. Filming was likely the best thing. My word against some important dude if I hurt him then destroy his car with my ASP baton from my back pocket. With no one there to stop me after I got started would likely get me 20 years in the slammer.

I have a couple of incidents (three I can think of) that stopped just shy of the physical stuff. I would take all of that out on this dude if he pushed my button.

AndrewHenle

And how do you KNOW, if you escalate like that, that you'll win, given you have zero footing?


At the end of the video, I have one hand trying to film him, and with only one hand available to me he's trying to get me to let him go - but given his previous behavior I wasn't wont to do that.

Believe me, I didn't "let him beat [my] ass". I just wasn't willing to risk escalating things - for a lot of reasons.

The situation was out-of-control enough. The only other time I've recorded a HR spike like I had when he attacked me was while I was in an actual race when I got a death-wobble during a descent. So I can not only say I was scared, I can actually document it.

And a person who isn't be scared in such a situation is an idiot. Courage isn't lack of fear. Courage is acting despite fear. Lack of fear is idiocy.

mtb_addict

Is it too late to go to a hospital to get yourself checked out and get a doctor's report on any bruises/injury? Might be useful later.

I presonally would not fight back...I would just keep back away and signal for help to other motorists. Fighting back is escalation, when you can retreat to safety. I believe a civilized person have a duty to retreat...only when there's no where to retreat, can you use self-defense to prevent physical injury. If he slips and falls and bust his head open, you'll be in big trouble.

AndrewHenle

Yeah.

I'd think beating on someone with the wherewithal to buy a BMW and apparently get special license plates is going to be legally risky.

Even if the person is aggressive, violent, and has totally earned having a full 55-gallon drum of Whoop-Ass dumped on his head.

JoeyBike

Oh, don't worry man. This dude will rage on the wrong fellow one day, have no fear. He won't need any anger management classes after that. Just a little attitude adjustment is all.

AndrewHenle

Except that between now and that wonderful day, he's likely to do something like use his car as the weapon since his cyclist-beat-down attempt failed.

Especially if he gets away with this.

Which is why my goal is to hang a criminal conviction on his ass. No expunged records or probation before judgment that allows him to get away with no record.

I want this hanging over his ass for the rest of his life so if he does go off again he does serious jail time.

If he runs into a cyclist after that, what are the chances a jury would watch the video I took and believe him when he says, "B-b-b-but the guy on the bike swerved in front of me. I didn't mean to hit him."

Yeah. Zero.

This isn't just about me - this is about me, my kid, my teammates, and every other person who might take a bicycle to the road.

Even the brain-damaged ones trying to blame this on me.

adablduya

to be fair, i didn't (yet) view the video all the way thru; the first 30 seconds were so shaky (understandable !!!), i stopped there.

ok, i appreciate your clarity on this. i use speedplays, too, so i totally get the 'slippery factor'. and i understand the HR spike factor, too; a situation like this would crank the adrenaline factor big time. i had the descent / wheel wobble thing happen to me, too. THAT is an HR spike moment !!!

in the end, i humbly admit that it's easy to arm-chair quarterback stuff like this. i just can't imagine being attacked like this ****** did and not fight back hard. fight or flee ? fleeing has its merits, and to be sure, i like to think i'd at least evaluate that option at the same time considering whether getting into the altercation is the way to go. again, in the heat of the moment, you just never know. there are some raving mad men out there, too many steroids, meth heads. etc.

a good argument for carrying pepper spray or some other implement that could be used for self defense... another discussion though for that .....

hey, good luck prosecuting this twerp. bring the hammer down.

jefnvk

Unfortunately, this is still bound to be pretty low on the totem pole in the judicial system. IF it actually gets to trial, it will probably be plead down to some low level misdemeanor with a bit of community service and anger management, few are going to want to waste a couple days of court resources on this. I'd say that even if it weren't some apparent bigwig, FWIW. Then again, maybe he'll do you a favor and act bullheaded, thinking he can beat it, and turn down any deal.

Keep us informed as much as possible, though!

KD5NRH

Most do teach use of distance where practical, but a lot of real attackers will try to wrestle; if you're tangled up with someone who wants to grapple, you're going to have to fight your way free to go back to playing a distance game.

Stop hits can be tricky; if it doesn't work, you're taking some or all of your focus away from blocking. Fine if you've got an opponent throwing haymakers you can just move out of the way of, but not likely to work if you're up against somebody who likes to use fast jabs a lot.

Milton Keynes

I'll probably just hang it from one of the brake cables like I've seen others do.

CB HI

What is it with your lack of reading comprehension. You look the fool. He said strait up that Admin is allowing him to post in this thread under his REAL NAME. Leisesturm, with your post here, you should start including your REAL first and last name in this thread. Show the courage that you wrongly claim that Andrew does not have.

Chris0516

OP, I found the video. Glad you are okay. I would have been after the guy, if he tried to damage my bike in some way.

TheLibrarian

At first i was thinking he's an old man and you're a presumably fit athletic type should have beat him down... either way from the video it looks like you holding him and him rolling your bike in the woods so you'd be the one charged with assault. More may have happened before that but it's not on camera and he'd likely deny it.

In general one of the many reasons I don't ride on the road or if I do I choose my routes carefully. Not fear of being assaulted just that the infrastructure just isn't there most places. Chucking his keys in the woods would have ben better than trying to hold him. I've seen much more serious fights where police never do anything. Sometimes you lose and you just have to move on.

Leisesturm

If Andrew Henle is spouting right and left about this fracas with his REAL NAME, with litigation pending no less... who really is the fool here?

coominya

That's how I feel. I understand people's need to push it on their bicycle to get proper fitness, most of us are into that, the bit I have never understood though is this whole racer fad where people choose to ride bikes so efficient that they have to ride them at 30 MPH round and round a city all day long just to get it.

I think there was a meeting in the board room of a large bike manufacturer 40 years ago. The General manager stood up and pointed to a chart showing the declining sales of their racer line of bicycles. They were falling off just as the mountain bike sales were taking off. A smart young marketing graduate stood up and consulted his notes.

"There is a perception among many new cyclists, especially women, that a racer is dangerous. The very name implies high speeds and it's obvious they have lower traction in certain circumstances. I suggest we re-market them, we can call them 'Road Bikes' and that will give the impression they are designed specifically for average road use and not just racing events."

There were nods of approval around the table and the General manager looked to the head of R&D, Harry, who stood up.
"Yes, we can do this easily. For the new season's range we'll fit slightly wider tires and a less aggressive saddle say, we'll change the color scheme too, that will differentiate them from last years model."
The marketing manager stood then, "I'll get onto my contacts at the cycling magazines and start to leak the word that we are bring out a new line of bikes suited to the average person. As soon as Harry has a modified racer we'll do up some publicity shots with men and women both prominent riding them, perhaps with with some at a burger joint, a social gathering after an energetic ride. After all, Sex sells!"

CB HI

Cops already have the video and know his name. OP has not said anything that would harm a prosecution of the motorist.

Your comments on the other hand could harm a case you might have in the future; talking about always needing to ride the line. Motorist will simply claim as you state that there was plenty of room but you swerved into them.

AndrewHenle

You are.

Do you still stand by your claim that there's enough room to ride FRAP, even after viewing the video and seeing the 18" or so between the side of the car and the edge of the road?

Do you still stand by your claim that had I been riding FRAP that the driver could have crossed the yellow line and passed me easily and safely, even with the knowledge that we were cresting a small blind hill and within tens of feet of a T intersection?

AndrewHenle

What do you base that on?

One, he got out of his car to attack me, establishing himself as a violent aggressor; two, there's a long period of time between when we stopped and I started filming and witnesses were already calling 911; three, after he tossed my bicycle I actually retreated farther from him and he still came after me.

I grabbed him to restrain him from trying to hit me again. Up to that point, doing more hadn't seemed necessary. Hell, once I went beyond just blocking and dodging and I grabbed him solidly to restrain him he rapidly began all but begging for me to let him go.

And he's already been charged - or at least the process has started....

So, where were his keys? I could have tried to take them out of the car's ignition and toss them into the nearest storm drain should I be able to find one, but I had no real evidence he left them in the car where I could find them quickly, and there was a woman in the car. My reaching into the car wouldn't have helped her rapidly-getting-more-horrible-by-the-second day, had the keys even been in there.

And I really didn't want to turn my back on him. I'd been able up to that point to successfully protect myself from him without having to do much more than block, dodge, and restrain. What happens if I turn around and bend over to reach into the car? He kicks me hard, up between the legs? Naaah, I don't need that too.

AndrewHenle

Thanks.

The problem is doing that would be a really good way to open the door to him and his lawyers painting you as an aggressor.

It's not about the bike.

PaddleFoot

I don't watch videos and I'm sorry this had to happen to you. In the greater scheme of things, this is just Life and we are very blessed this and worse does not happen more often.

Could you, at any point before this happened, just let this car pass you by? As I read your account, I got the impression you were making some point by ignoring his car horn(?). When it comes to safety, it is your call only. Forget about what bicycle advocates say and think, they are not in your shoes. Stick to the facts and stop creating scenarios where this guy runs people over with his car.

Let the idiot pass. Wouldn't your life have been better?

Best wishes to you. This too, shall pass.

AndrewHenle

If there were room to allow a safe pass, I probably would have, even given the obnoxious, arrogant, and probably-illegal continuous horn-blowing.

But the road is simply too narrow to allow a pass on a blind hill or while approaching a T intersection from the base of the T. There's no safe way to do it. And given the aggressive way he got right on my rear wheel there was no way I was going to give him room to get next to me on that narrow a road.

By "ignoring" the horn-blowing I was meaning just that - riding like I would had he not been there at all. Look at the GPS track: I crested the hill, did a short pop to get back up to a decent speed, then coasted into the stop sign. I didn't slow down suddenly just to annoy the driver, I didn't flip him off. About the only thing I did was turn and look:

"Great. Someone wants me out of THEIR road. Meh."

Next thing I know I hear him cursing me out and getting out of his car...

Hell, if I wanted to annoy him I wouldn't have hit about 700W in order to accelerate over the hill.