Experience with pepper spray?
02-20-18, 08:54 AM
#26
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Might I point out that a 68-year-old woman is Not the person who needs to start a fight with three young thugs? Might I point out that if she doesn't flee the area immediately, once the thugs recover a little they might well track her down and kill her accidentally, knock her down and break her hips without even knowing it might happen----or caring?
I would not encourage a young body-builder martial artist to pick a fight with three strangers. Was any of them carrying a knife or gun?
Also, as I mentioned "Call the Cops" is great ... if the cops are already so close they don't need to be called because they saw the incident and are already running over.
Otherwise ... what should she stand there for ten minutes waiting? In ten minutes the thugs will be well able to retaliate and escape.
People who pull that macho stuff online ... whatever. I can tell you, in the real world you would learn your lesson quickly.
And did you miss that she is a 68-year-old woman?
Sorry but that is some stupid advice.
Escalating to using a weapon is a "Do it or Die" option, not a "Teach them a lesson" option. And one reason it is a "Do or Die" option is because you might die Because you used the weapon ... it is Not a Game. it is not the movie,. It is not TV.
People get killed often enough---including women of a certain age---because they stood up to bullies. Righteousness and the moral high ground is no defense.
I don't like bullies, but shoot ... when I was Much much younger and extremely fit i barely got out of a situation with a gang of punk ... I could have taken out any two of them, but there were six or eight ... in their own neighborhood ... and that means their neighbors, parents, and big brothers and Their gang buddies were probably watching.
If I had started something, I might never have left that neighborhood. Knowing that---not in melodramatic Hollywood-movie-scene imagination, but realizing "Wow, I am Deeeep in this stuff here," well .... I learned a lot of lessons. I am sure some folks would have earned Darwin awards.
I was able to walk the fine line between not showing fear and not provoking aggression, not looking weak and not looking threatening, and I managed to walk out of there ... but those punks Knew they were perfectly safe no matter what, and no amount of "I don't tolerate bullies" would have worked.
I got lucky ... but if I had mace some of them, .... well whatever.
Nowadays, old and fat and slow ... I would simply not get into that situation if I could avoid it.
You want to read something from someone who has a clue?
Notice "De-escalation." Unless this lady is a trained soldier carrying a full-auto weapon it is not likely a 68-year-old woman is going to fare well escalating to violence with a group of three young men.
That I would even have to type those words makes me feel embarrassed for anyone who has to be told.
Calling the cops is a fine idea .... she could take their pictures and share them with the police--if she could do it surreptitiously (helmet-mounted Go-Pro.) If she even pulled her phone out to photo them ... they would probably knock her down and take her phone.. She could call the cops and give a good description ... but even then, if the cops hassled them, they'd think, That old lady snitched," and that is not a great thing in some circles.
On the other hand, if she acts unafraid, engages slightly, and makes them see her as a human, if only a little ... she might get home to post the story of her next ride.
Just my opinion.
I would not encourage a young body-builder martial artist to pick a fight with three strangers. Was any of them carrying a knife or gun?
Also, as I mentioned "Call the Cops" is great ... if the cops are already so close they don't need to be called because they saw the incident and are already running over.
Otherwise ... what should she stand there for ten minutes waiting? In ten minutes the thugs will be well able to retaliate and escape.
People who pull that macho stuff online ... whatever. I can tell you, in the real world you would learn your lesson quickly.
And did you miss that she is a 68-year-old woman?
Sorry but that is some stupid advice.
Escalating to using a weapon is a "Do it or Die" option, not a "Teach them a lesson" option. And one reason it is a "Do or Die" option is because you might die Because you used the weapon ... it is Not a Game. it is not the movie,. It is not TV.
People get killed often enough---including women of a certain age---because they stood up to bullies. Righteousness and the moral high ground is no defense.
I don't like bullies, but shoot ... when I was Much much younger and extremely fit i barely got out of a situation with a gang of punk ... I could have taken out any two of them, but there were six or eight ... in their own neighborhood ... and that means their neighbors, parents, and big brothers and Their gang buddies were probably watching.
If I had started something, I might never have left that neighborhood. Knowing that---not in melodramatic Hollywood-movie-scene imagination, but realizing "Wow, I am Deeeep in this stuff here," well .... I learned a lot of lessons. I am sure some folks would have earned Darwin awards.
I was able to walk the fine line between not showing fear and not provoking aggression, not looking weak and not looking threatening, and I managed to walk out of there ... but those punks Knew they were perfectly safe no matter what, and no amount of "I don't tolerate bullies" would have worked.
I got lucky ... but if I had mace some of them, .... well whatever.
Nowadays, old and fat and slow ... I would simply not get into that situation if I could avoid it.
You want to read something from someone who has a clue?
Notice "De-escalation." Unless this lady is a trained soldier carrying a full-auto weapon it is not likely a 68-year-old woman is going to fare well escalating to violence with a group of three young men.
That I would even have to type those words makes me feel embarrassed for anyone who has to be told.
Calling the cops is a fine idea .... she could take their pictures and share them with the police--if she could do it surreptitiously (helmet-mounted Go-Pro.) If she even pulled her phone out to photo them ... they would probably knock her down and take her phone.. She could call the cops and give a good description ... but even then, if the cops hassled them, they'd think, That old lady snitched," and that is not a great thing in some circles.
On the other hand, if she acts unafraid, engages slightly, and makes them see her as a human, if only a little ... she might get home to post the story of her next ride.
Just my opinion.
She said she felt threatened, she said she was 68 and didn't feel a crash would go well with her. She felt she needed a means to defend herself against aggressive kids. She and others suggested pepper spray.
And then someone warned that "the parents of these kids may retaliate". To which I say BS.
IF SHE IS PUT INTO A POSITION OF HAVING TO DEFEND HERSELF OR ELSE THE OPTION IS BODILY HARM, then I agree she should defend herself using the pepper spray which is what this whole thread is about!! Additionally, I said IF an incident should take place, SHE SHOULD BE THE ONE TO CALL AND REPORT IT TO THE POLICE and to do it immediately, informing them she felt she was in danger and being assaulted.
How in the world you read into that I suggested she "start a fight", "stand around 10 minutes" or otherwise is a complete mystery.
"That I would even have to type those words makes me feel embarrassed for anyone who has to be told." You didn't have to type those words, or any words for that matter. I'm embarrassed for you if you have such deficient reading comprehension skills as to totally not only misconstrue other's words, but to twist them in such a way as to build a whole fictional dramatic presentation which includes your own past, which is totally irrelevant and frankly, not the least bit of interest nor relevant.
Here let me simplify:
If a person is in a situation where they feel they are in danger from other individuals, they have a right to protect themselves using whatever means they have at their disposal. They should not give up that right (and thus suffer assault and possible bodily harm) for fear of some legal action that a "parent of these kids" may take as a result of, in this case, the victim's use of pepper spray. (Which was suggested)
In the event this were to happen, it has been shown over and over in self defense cases, the first "story" or "account" of the incident the police hears, carries the most weight. So the first thing they need to hear is, "I was a victim of assault and in fear for my safety. I used pepper spray to defend myself", instead of "Some mean older woman sprayed my child and his friend for no reason".
Now whether or not you can read and understand that without all the drama and misinterpretation is yet to be seen.
02-20-18, 09:06 AM
#27
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I've thought about peper spray, but haven't bought any. I have spoken with several retired local PD about using it.. asking if they have used it and the reply is always the same.. "used it many times.... doesn't always work. Sometimes the perp laughs in your face and gets meaner."
Something to consider. Also, be careful, they will take it away from you and use it on yourself.
Evasive action, de-escalate... think before acting.
Something to consider. Also, be careful, they will take it away from you and use it on yourself.
Evasive action, de-escalate... think before acting.
02-20-18, 09:47 AM
#28
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To the OP....
As for pepper spray...again...San Francisco. You have no idea who you're dealing with. Could be a mouthy neighborhood kid who learns his lesson from a smack in the mouth. Could be a seriously dangerous criminal who decides that getting pepper sprayed is reason enough to kill you.
And if you're scared enough to pepper spray a kid who you think it trying to hurt you, would you have the wherewithal in that moment to get off the bike, get the pepper spray unholstered, aim it at the kid who's moving fast on a bike properly, and get the shot off? Then get back on the bike and get the hell out of there as fast as possible?
It's hard to do all that when you're scared, and get it done properly within 2 seconds. If it takes you longer than 2 seconds, the criminal kid is likely to get mad that you're trying to pepper spray him and retaliate before you get the shot off.
Then you have to consider who this kid is. Again..mouthy neighborhood punk? The pepper spray will be effective. Criminal with a record, the pepper spray may not be so effective. It's only an irritant. If you've been hit with it multiple times previously you can learn to ignore it for a few seconds and retaliate.
For a 68 year old and I'm assuming no military training I'd consider a pepper spray a last resort option after you're no longer able to get out of there. "Get away" is the safest bet. Trying to teach thug kids a lesson when you're alone on a trail in the woods is good way to get hurt.
If you decide to get the pepper spray anyway...don't just buy it and clip it to the bike until you need it. Buy 2 canisters. Do some training with 1. Shoot it in the back yard. Learn how far the stream throws. How fast is comes out. Practice getting it out of the holster and aimed with your eyes closed. Do it on the trail when you're riding and tires and out of breath. Stop the bike, close your eyes, and get the spray in your hand and properly aimed while you're tired, breathing hard, and blind. Practice this a lot, as its the closest you can come to creating a situation where you're scared and disoriented when you really need the spray.
If you wait until you're attacked and try to do all that, you're going to fail.
Last edited by Skipjacks; 02-20-18 at 09:51 AM.
02-20-18, 10:42 AM
#29
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Well this has been an interesting discussion. I was riding on a city mup, not out in the woods somewhere. I am car free and this is the main route to get most places. These were definitely middle school kids; it was a school holiday and I guess they were bored. I have never had any problems before, not with the homeless guys on bikes or other kids or anyone.
I've decided the pepper spray would probably not be a great solution for me. I'm going to get a go-pro camera. I don't think these kids actually intended bodily harm, they just wanted to scare me. What they did legally constitutes assault, however, and they could be charged. Rather than "getting even" with pepper spray, the advantage of a filmed recording is that they can be prevented from doing this to someone else in the future. I can turn over the film to the cops and, using our local social media platforms, easily identify who they are.
If it happens again, I'm just going to stop and hold my ground. I doubt they will actually run into me (at least not on purpose) and they are just interested in getting a reaction. And I'll get the best images that way.
Worst case, my 19 pound Bike Friday pakiT can easily be lifted and swung by me as a weapon, lol.
Hopefully this was a one-off.
I've decided the pepper spray would probably not be a great solution for me. I'm going to get a go-pro camera. I don't think these kids actually intended bodily harm, they just wanted to scare me. What they did legally constitutes assault, however, and they could be charged. Rather than "getting even" with pepper spray, the advantage of a filmed recording is that they can be prevented from doing this to someone else in the future. I can turn over the film to the cops and, using our local social media platforms, easily identify who they are.
If it happens again, I'm just going to stop and hold my ground. I doubt they will actually run into me (at least not on purpose) and they are just interested in getting a reaction. And I'll get the best images that way.
Worst case, my 19 pound Bike Friday pakiT can easily be lifted and swung by me as a weapon, lol.
Hopefully this was a one-off.
02-20-18, 10:48 AM
#30
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Well this has been an interesting discussion. I was riding on a city mup, not out in the woods somewhere. I am car free and this is the main route to get most places. These were definitely middle school kids; it was a school holiday and I guess they were bored. I have never had any problems before, not with the homeless guys on bikes or other kids or anyone.
I've decided the pepper spray would probably not be a great solution for me. I'm going to get a go-pro camera. I don't think these kids actually intended bodily harm, they just wanted to scare me. What they did legally constitutes assault, however, and they could be charged. Rather than "getting even" with pepper spray, the advantage of a filmed recording is that they can be prevented from doing this to someone else in the future. I can turn over the film to the cops and, using our local social media platforms, easily identify who they are.
If it happens again, I'm just going to stop and hold my ground. I doubt they will actually run into me (at least not on purpose) and they are just interested in getting a reaction. And I'll get the best images that way.
Worst case, my 19 pound Bike Friday pakiT can easily be lifted and swung by me as a weapon, lol.
Hopefully this was a one-off.
I've decided the pepper spray would probably not be a great solution for me. I'm going to get a go-pro camera. I don't think these kids actually intended bodily harm, they just wanted to scare me. What they did legally constitutes assault, however, and they could be charged. Rather than "getting even" with pepper spray, the advantage of a filmed recording is that they can be prevented from doing this to someone else in the future. I can turn over the film to the cops and, using our local social media platforms, easily identify who they are.
If it happens again, I'm just going to stop and hold my ground. I doubt they will actually run into me (at least not on purpose) and they are just interested in getting a reaction. And I'll get the best images that way.
Worst case, my 19 pound Bike Friday pakiT can easily be lifted and swung by me as a weapon, lol.
Hopefully this was a one-off.
This instructional video from Tommy Boy will show you the proper way to strike fear into the hearts of middle school brats
02-20-18, 11:47 AM
#31
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02-20-18, 11:51 AM
#32
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I'd say the G0-Pro would be the best approach ... and if they are tween punks ... not only are they just punks, if you did anything you might face tricky liability issues ... you Should be able to defend yourself but you don't live in Florida.
In Florida you could shoot them because you didn't like the brand of sneakers they were wearing and get away with. California ... probably huge fines because there is insufficient tax revenue.
I had thought these were more serious late-teen gangster types.
In no case would I advise a violent reaction, unless it was literally life-or-death ... in which case pepper spray would strike me as insufficient but might be all you can gt out there. (You could carry a machete, but like anything else ... never pull it until you have decided to kill rather than die.)
Please keep posting so we don't worry about you.
Punk kids ... threaten to spank them.
In Florida you could shoot them because you didn't like the brand of sneakers they were wearing and get away with. California ... probably huge fines because there is insufficient tax revenue.
I had thought these were more serious late-teen gangster types.
In no case would I advise a violent reaction, unless it was literally life-or-death ... in which case pepper spray would strike me as insufficient but might be all you can gt out there. (You could carry a machete, but like anything else ... never pull it until you have decided to kill rather than die.)
Please keep posting so we don't worry about you.
Punk kids ... threaten to spank them.
02-20-18, 11:52 AM
#33
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I would seriously recommend pulling out the cell phone and dialling 911 asap.
If they're psycho enough to mess with you they'll lose their **** if you pull a can of mace, and miss.
Best to have the phone dialing and have a quick chat with the dispatcher. You don't want a Clockwork Orange scenario going down.
I'm truly disgusted that happened to you.
If they're psycho enough to mess with you they'll lose their **** if you pull a can of mace, and miss.
Best to have the phone dialing and have a quick chat with the dispatcher. You don't want a Clockwork Orange scenario going down.
I'm truly disgusted that happened to you.
02-20-18, 12:14 PM
#34
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While I am not really worried about human confrontations that much, there still is the problem with untethered and territorial dogs. I have been chased a couple times by dogs, nearly bitten once. So that is my main concern for getting pepper spray. And having it handy in case of an unforseen road rage incident is a plus.
02-20-18, 12:30 PM
#35
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Yes, investigation, if it yields arrests, can prevent crime by discouraging criminals. But it the crime is happening, the police aren't going to be there until it's over.
02-20-18, 04:04 PM
#36
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02-20-18, 05:52 PM
#37
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people need to repeat this over and over until #911 loses its meaning: "Police Investigate crimes. Police to not Stop crimes."
Yes, investigation, if it yields arrests, can prevent crime by discouraging criminals. But it the crime is happening, the police aren't going to be there until it's over.
Yes, investigation, if it yields arrests, can prevent crime by discouraging criminals. But it the crime is happening, the police aren't going to be there until it's over.
02-20-18, 07:55 PM
#38
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Ok, ok the whole call 911 thing was just an idea to scare off the kiddos. I figured having a dispatcher on speaker phone would scare them off. I agree that probably it would be best to not even try and keep on riding.@linberl You obviously were upset so I'd still encourage finding a course in self defense. Especially if you commute alone in town a lot.
I don't even know what's going on with our boys and young men anymore. Instead of racing each other they try running into someone on a folding commuter bike? Ugh. For what it's worth, and all my peace talk if I had seen it happen I woulda caught up and scolded the kid. Probably not much more then a simple "NOT COOL" and I'd ride off.
Of course I'm a full grown punk that doesn't worry too much, but you never know I could still get shot with the way things seem to be heading
02-20-18, 08:47 PM
#39
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Ok, ok the whole call 911 thing was just an idea to scare off the kiddos. I figured having a dispatcher on speaker phone would scare them off. I agree that probably it would be best to not even try and keep on riding.@linberl You obviously were upset so I'd still encourage finding a course in self defense. Especially if you commute alone in town a lot.
I don't even know what's going on with our boys and young men anymore. Instead of racing each other they try running into someone on a folding commuter bike? Ugh. For what it's worth, and all my peace talk if I had seen it happen I woulda caught up and scolded the kid. Probably not much more then a simple "NOT COOL" and I'd ride off.
Of course I'm a full grown punk that doesn't worry too much, but you never know I could still get shot with the way things seem to be heading
I'm over it now. I realized what I should have done was just stopped and not said anything; I've got a pretty good death glare according to my son, lol. They would have gotten bored after realizing I wasn't going to react. I'm sure it was all about the reaction for them. If I encounter them again that's exactly what I will do - ride to the side, stop, and ignore.
But I did get Grandad's shalaylee out to take on dog walks in the future.
Thanks to everyone for all the advise and suggestions!!!
02-21-18, 04:20 AM
#40
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I totally get that. Our workld views don't generally include anti-social and threatening behavior directly impacting us (most of us) because we live safe lives. it would be like walking out he door of an urban apartment building and seeing cougar eating the neighbor's child ......
I am pretty sure you will get over that and be able to enjoy life---and riding---just as fully. This was sort of a freak accident. [/QUOTE]
I am pretty sure you will get over that and be able to enjoy life---and riding---just as fully. This was sort of a freak accident. [/QUOTE]
Last edited by Maelochs; 02-21-18 at 04:24 AM.
02-21-18, 10:18 AM
#41
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I totally get that. Our workld views don't generally include anti-social and threatening behavior directly impacting us (most of us) because we live safe lives. it would be like walking out he door of an urban apartment building and seeing cougar eating the neighbor's child ......
I am pretty sure you will get over that and be able to enjoy life---and riding---just as fully. This was sort of a freak accident.
I am pretty sure you will get over that and be able to enjoy life---and riding---just as fully. This was sort of a freak accident.
Yeah, I rode yesterday and it was nice. The twits were clearly back in school. My rides are the place where I am able to leave behind all the stresses and concerns of daily life so that's why it was so shocking. If it had happened while I was out walking the dog, I wouldn't have felt the same (plus I would have had my dog eat them!).
Nice to have a place to come vent until I calm down, with people who get it...
I will look out for them when I ride on weekends and school holidays, though, and just try to avoid them.
02-21-18, 02:34 PM
#42
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It seems it is possible after all to have a BF "weapons" thread with a happy ending.
02-23-18, 02:11 AM
#43
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Anyone who carries pepper spray should also carry Sudecon wipes. They decontaminate skin and eyes exposed to pepper spray. You'll need them if you get affected by blow-back, a bystander gets sprayed, or if someone turns your pepper spray on you. It doesn't completely reverse the effect, but 2-3 wipes will at least decrease the burning and allow you to see.
Whole milk or half-n-half also works if you are near a convenience store or coffee shop when the incident occurs. As I've been told, you need something that has both fat (to dilute and lift the pepper oil) and calcium (some say it's actually the caseine) to bind the capsaicin. Not a cure but decreases the pain until better methods are available.
As the active ingredient in pepper spray is an organic oil, water will not remove it. Dawn dish soap, shampoo or one of the hand cleaners designed for greasy hands will remove it, but it can take several washings. Avoid rubbing or spreading the oil.
Whole milk or half-n-half also works if you are near a convenience store or coffee shop when the incident occurs. As I've been told, you need something that has both fat (to dilute and lift the pepper oil) and calcium (some say it's actually the caseine) to bind the capsaicin. Not a cure but decreases the pain until better methods are available.
As the active ingredient in pepper spray is an organic oil, water will not remove it. Dawn dish soap, shampoo or one of the hand cleaners designed for greasy hands will remove it, but it can take several washings. Avoid rubbing or spreading the oil.
02-23-18, 11:16 AM
#44
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I like where this is going 
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02-23-18, 11:36 AM
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But of course they'll stand around cooperatively while you get on the phone and chat for a bit.
02-24-18, 07:03 PM
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People tend to forget that we do not have an inherent right to not be disrupted or offended when in a public space.
02-25-18, 07:39 PM
#48
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There's a difference between disruption/offended and what constitutes legal assault. In criminal and civil law, assault is a threat of imminent harmful or offensive contact with a person, or a threat to do so. It is distinct from battery, which refers to the actual achievement of such contact.
02-26-18, 06:26 PM
#49
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I started carrying pepper spray after my third encounter with the same dog at the local park in which I take to work. This dog must have been a dalmation puppy who only wanted to play but kept hopping in front of my front wheel while the owner from way back kept calling her. I could have kept going and ended up kidnapping the dog. But on all three occasions I yelled at the owner to leash the dog. When I got to the office, I contacted Parks and Recreation and I copied my Councillor. I haven't seen that dog since.
There are lots of other unleashed dogs in that park and I have never had any trouble with dobermans or other big dogs. The smaller ones bark a lot but their owners have them on leashes. The last dog that ran up to me just the other day, I stopped my bike and told the owner to put it on a leash. The owner called the dog and leashed him up. I road by and said "thanks".
Speaking of pepper spray, I never used it. It's hanging off my fanny pack so it would take a bit of maneuvering for me to get it. Much faster and more effective by doing what I have been doing - giving owners the time to control their pets.
Regarding people, I was taking turns at a three way stop when I was cut off as I took my turn and proceeded into the intersection. I spit in the direction of the car as he made his turn in front of me. Then, at the corner of my eye, I noticed the car had stopped. He made an illegal u-turn and chased me down. As he passed me, his friend tossed a pop can in my direction. It didn't look as if he intended to hit me but only to frighten me. That would have been a good time to use the pepper spray. The passenger window was open - but, oh boy, I wouldn't be here to tell the tale.
There are lots of other unleashed dogs in that park and I have never had any trouble with dobermans or other big dogs. The smaller ones bark a lot but their owners have them on leashes. The last dog that ran up to me just the other day, I stopped my bike and told the owner to put it on a leash. The owner called the dog and leashed him up. I road by and said "thanks".
Speaking of pepper spray, I never used it. It's hanging off my fanny pack so it would take a bit of maneuvering for me to get it. Much faster and more effective by doing what I have been doing - giving owners the time to control their pets.
Regarding people, I was taking turns at a three way stop when I was cut off as I took my turn and proceeded into the intersection. I spit in the direction of the car as he made his turn in front of me. Then, at the corner of my eye, I noticed the car had stopped. He made an illegal u-turn and chased me down. As he passed me, his friend tossed a pop can in my direction. It didn't look as if he intended to hit me but only to frighten me. That would have been a good time to use the pepper spray. The passenger window was open - but, oh boy, I wouldn't be here to tell the tale.
02-27-18, 08:48 PM
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I started carrying pepper spray after my third encounter with the same dog at the local park in which I take to work. This dog must have been a dalmation puppy who only wanted to play but kept hopping in front of my front wheel while the owner from way back kept calling her. I could have kept going and ended up kidnapping the dog. But on all three occasions I yelled at the owner to leash the dog. When I got to the office, I contacted Parks and Recreation and I copied my Councillor. I haven't seen that dog since.
There are lots of other unleashed dogs in that park and I have never had any trouble with dobermans or other big dogs. The smaller ones bark a lot but their owners have them on leashes. The last dog that ran up to me just the other day, I stopped my bike and told the owner to put it on a leash. The owner called the dog and leashed him up. I road by and said "thanks".
Speaking of pepper spray, I never used it. It's hanging off my fanny pack so it would take a bit of maneuvering for me to get it. Much faster and more effective by doing what I have been doing - giving owners the time to control their pets.
Regarding people, I was taking turns at a three way stop when I was cut off as I took my turn and proceeded into the intersection. I spit in the direction of the car as he made his turn in front of me. Then, at the corner of my eye, I noticed the car had stopped. He made an illegal u-turn and chased me down. As he passed me, his friend tossed a pop can in my direction. It didn't look as if he intended to hit me but only to frighten me. That would have been a good time to use the pepper spray. The passenger window was open - but, oh boy, I wouldn't be here to tell the tale.
There are lots of other unleashed dogs in that park and I have never had any trouble with dobermans or other big dogs. The smaller ones bark a lot but their owners have them on leashes. The last dog that ran up to me just the other day, I stopped my bike and told the owner to put it on a leash. The owner called the dog and leashed him up. I road by and said "thanks".
Speaking of pepper spray, I never used it. It's hanging off my fanny pack so it would take a bit of maneuvering for me to get it. Much faster and more effective by doing what I have been doing - giving owners the time to control their pets.
Regarding people, I was taking turns at a three way stop when I was cut off as I took my turn and proceeded into the intersection. I spit in the direction of the car as he made his turn in front of me. Then, at the corner of my eye, I noticed the car had stopped. He made an illegal u-turn and chased me down. As he passed me, his friend tossed a pop can in my direction. It didn't look as if he intended to hit me but only to frighten me. That would have been a good time to use the pepper spray. The passenger window was open - but, oh boy, I wouldn't be here to tell the tale.