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Missing bike reflectors

Old 09-28-23, 09:07 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Again, no. The first diagram shows they don’t understand how they are supposed to work. The “not a substitute for a headlight” equally shows they don’t understand how they are supposed to work.
The diagram is perfectly understandable. A motorist stopped at a stop sign wouldn’t see a cyclist depending on the side reflectors (or any reflector, for that matter) because the lights from the car don’t illuminate the reflectors. The car pulls out from the stop sign and into the path of the bicyclist who then hits the car.

A similar scenario of a car at a stop sign with the cyclist a little further down the road still depending on reflectors but the cyclist passes in front of the car as it pulls out would still result in a collision since the car wouldn’t see the cyclist until the last moment. Similar scenarios with the same result.

Side reflectors aren’t effective for collision avoidance because the detection angle is too narrow.


All the more reason to reject incorrect explanations.
One’s credibility is weakened by using an incorrect explanation.

One person said he found them useful. Using an example that shows “you” don’t have any idea about them isn’t going to sway hem at all.
RCMoeur knows more about traffic and traffic movement than either you or I. His illustration is perfectly valid and certainly not “incorrect”. You seem to be the only person here who doesn’t understand the point he was making.


​​​​​​​This is a “it’s not perfect” argument. Nothing is perfect.
No, it’s not an “it’s not perfect” argument. It’s a “the reflector is useless” argument for the reasons listed. That corner is not unique. I can find hundreds of intersections in my neighborhood where at least one corner is obscured, if not all 4 intersections aren’t obscured. My neighborhood is an older one where we have a parking strip between the curb and the sidewalk so there is a bit more real estate between the fences and the corner. In newer suburban areas, the wide between the fence and curb is only the width of the sidewalk…maybe 3 feet. And the streets are straight which further reduces the sight line.

​​​​​​​The CSPC link is more convincing.
And that link says that even with the under the best possible conditions…controlled conditions, unobstructed view, test subjects that are aware that there is something out there, and test subjects that are asked to verbally note objects on the road…they said that the side reflectors were ineffective.
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Old 09-28-23, 09:10 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by RCMoeur
As I did note earlier, the side retroreflection on my bicycles is primarily for looks and not in any expectation of improved safety. The greater concern are the riders who think side reflectors are effective and in doing so choose not to use headlamps - which are required across the US by state statutes.
Noted (as is the spelling of your name…sorry).
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Old 09-28-23, 09:13 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
This cite does not indicate what Forestor's objection to the CPSC's regulation on reflectors was, nor the outcome of the case.
Can you provide a summary? Lots of people instigate lawsuits for lots of reasons, some of them have a case, others are frivolous and just blowing smoke.

Edited to add:
Does this CPSC press release provide the outcome of Forestor's lawsuit on the subject of reflectors?"Office of Information and Public Affairs Washington, DC 20207

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE June 3, 1977 Release # 77-057

CPSC Announces Court Decision On Bike Regulation WASHINGTON, D.C. (June 3) -- The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) today expressed satisfaction at a court decision which affirmed its authority to regulate bicycles under the Federal Hazardous Substances Act (FHSA). In a decision handed down June 1, 1977, by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, the Commission's authority to issue design and performance standards that ban those products which do not meet the specifications was upheld, as was the Commission's action to regulate full-size bicycles as "articles intended for use by children." The Court also upheld specific provisions of the bicycle regulation which took effect last year. These include provisions on reflectors, stopping distance brake requirements, wheels and tires. Finding insufficient justification in the record, the Court order remanded several provisions of the bicycle regulation to the Commission for further consideration. These include brake pad material, handle bar width, pedal construction and protusions. The Commission's staff is currently studying the remanded sections and will make their recommendations to the Commission as soon as possible. The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission protects the public from unreasonable risk of injury or death from 15,000 types of consumer products under the agency's jurisdiction. To report a dangerous product or a product-related injury and for information on CPSC's fax-on-demand service, call CPSC's hotline at (800) 638-2772 or CPSC's teletypewriter at (800) 638-8270. To order a press release through fax-on-demand, call (301) 504-0051 from the handset of your fax machine and enter the release number. Consumers can obtain this release and recall information or report product hazards to info cpsc.gov."
On of the results of the above court finding is the CSPC reflector study I linked to.
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Old 09-28-23, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
The diagram is perfectly understandable.
You are working way too hard to call two things that are obviously different "the same thing". You are either being kind of clueless or disingenuous.

Last edited by cb400bill; 09-28-23 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 09-28-23, 10:26 AM
  #30  
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I like retroreflective tape. I put pieces in different places on the bike, shoes, and helmet to augment my lights.

I saw a neat trick for people who don't like to stick it to the tubes of the bike. First put a piece of electrical tape on, then stick the retroreflective tape to that. It removes easily and leaves no damage to the paint.
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Old 09-28-23, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
On of the results of the above court finding is the CSPC reflector study I linked to.
The CPSC reflector study you cited was initiated over 20 years after the Forestor lawsuit against the CPSC was settled when Forestor's objections to the Code of Federal Regulation requirement for reflectors were rejected by the court. The findings from that judgement had no effect on initiating the study you cited.

The new study was initiated after the CPSC published a report in June 1994, Bicycle Use and Hazard Patterns in the United States. This report was based on 1991 nationwide surveys that collected information on bicycle-related injuries and characteristics and use patterns of the general population of bicyclists. That study indicated the disproportionate number of night time bicycle accidents.

The new study looked into potential improvements in reflectors and the current standard as far as nighttime detection and recognition of bicyclists and found that none of the tested reflector or light treatments significantly improved performance in cross traffic detection or recognition over the current CPSC standard and noted the difficulty in improving counter measures for the hazard of cross traffic collisions. It did not state that the CPSC spoke reflectors were "ineffective" or "useless" for detecting or recognizing cross traffic bicyclists and recommended no changes in the standard for side reflectors.

Note that there was no discussion of an alleged cyclists' belief that side reflectors were a suitable replacement for front lights.

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 09-28-23 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 09-28-23, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Noted (as is the spelling of your name…sorry).
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Old 09-28-23, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
You are working way too hard to call two things that are obviously different "the same thing". [name-calling redacted]
As has been pointed out, in the situation where a vehicle's headlights can illuminate a bicycle's wheel reflectors, the motor vehicle is either so far back from the intersection as to not pose a crash risk, or is so close, as it would seem you tried to illustrate with the rearranging of the graphic, that the driver would not be able to react effectively, even if aware and at a full stop (which eliminates some but not all of perception-reaction delay). Insisting otherwise would seem to require ignoring basic human factors information on visibility and road user reaction.
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Last edited by RCMoeur; 09-28-23 at 11:46 AM. Reason: oops - misattributed quote
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Old 09-28-23, 12:48 PM
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After much discussion I've come to conclusion that, since I don't ride unless the sun's out, they're not being replaced on the two bikes that don't have them.
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Old 09-28-23, 12:53 PM
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And with that, this thread is closed.
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