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Daytime Running Light Study

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Daytime Running Light Study

Old 10-16-23, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
When your light reduces intensity, you are in its shadow. This is (partly) why flashing lights are idiotic and banned in so many places for so many vehicles.
This is an example of making 'perfect the enemy of good'. If flashing lights are idiotic and banned some places (Germany), they aren't banned here. And here is where we ride. What is your objection now. Also, I DOUBT flashing lights are banned on EVERYTHING in Germany. They are banned on bicycles, we know that. It's a trope now. Why is that? So that bicycles aren't confused for something else maybe? It certainly isn't that flashing lights are idiotic or dangerous in some way. It is more that they aren't necessary for cyclists to be safe. Reserve that privilege for the services that need the premium. German laws and more importantly GERMAN INFRASTRUCTURE ensures adequate nighttime illumination of road users, including cyclists. Here, NOT SO MUCH guaranteed everywhere. So, you better carry your own lights and, as I said earlier, the run time of most lights in flash mode is triple what it is in steady mode, so you better believe I flash that mofo like my life depended on it. It doesn't, but ack, what does it hurt to do as the Romans do ...
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Old 10-16-23, 06:48 PM
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I use high powered lights during the day. I use the flash mode to have a longer run time. The light going on and off causes an eye catching movement. I don't use these lights at night. I use a German taillight called the Toplight Line Plus Brake Tec. This light brightens when I slow.
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Old 10-16-23, 07:21 PM
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You know, I just thought I'd mention these beauties. Unlike what some of you are calling 'Daytime Running Lights' which is really just 'Headlights on in the Daytime', these things really are 'running lights'. They can be seen very well from the front and a little to the rear, but they are made to protect the very vulnerable side quarter. I've been running a pair on our tandem that we commute on starting at zero dark thirty most weekday mornings. Tandems are impossible to dance out of the way of a left turning cager cutting the line too fine trying to beat the rush to Dutch Bros. Coffee. I wonder why I don't see more (any) of them out here. They are hellishly bright and have at least two strobe speeds, plus steady. My plan was to run two pairs, one pair on the front fork legs and a second pair 1/2way down the tandem because the sleep deprived might not see its one very long bike. I haven't bothered. One pair is more than enough. I'll use the second pair on Big Red. Just because. Recommended
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Old 10-16-23, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-ve...s/motorcycles/

The data is very clear that your claim is incorrect.
I see no data there addressing the point in question.
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Old 10-16-23, 09:42 PM
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You know, I just thought I'd mention these beauties. Unlike what some of you are calling 'Daytime Running Lights' which is really just 'Headlights on in the Daytime', these things really are 'running lights'. They can be seen very well from the front and a little to the rear, but they are made to protect the very vulnerable side quarter. I've been running a pair on our tandem that we commute on starting at zero dark thirty most weekday mornings. Tandems are impossible to dance out of the way of a left turning cager cutting the line too fine trying to beat the rush to Dutch Bros. Coffee. I wonder why I don't see more (any) of them out here. They are hellishly bright and have at least two strobe speeds, plus steady. My plan was to run two pairs, one pair on the front fork legs and a second pair 1/2way down the tandem because the sleep deprived might not see its one very long bike. I haven't bothered. One pair is more than enough. I'll use the second pair on Big Red. Just because. Recommended
Some of the daylight flashers don't have much visibility of of center. Dinotte says the quad red has 320° of visibility.


Here is my light setup on my rack. I have a German light on the rack and a Tubus fender bracket upside down attached to the rack with a Nitto product mounted to the fender accessory bracket. Nitto makes that light mount tube with two different size screws coming out of it. The 5mm one works in the Tubus bracket unless you like drilling the bracket.
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Old 10-16-23, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick
Actually it is. Bringing up the statistics vagally does not prove that running lights doesn't help. Without running lights during the day, there would be higher collision rates.
This conversation is getting on my nerves.
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Old 10-16-23, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
I see no data there addressing the point in question.
Sometimes, we need to use our own eyes and common sense.

While on the road, make note of traffic especially bicycles and motorcycles. Decide for yourself whether daytime lights make them stand out better or not.

Of course, standing out and catching people's attention doesn't guarranty reduced likelihood of collision, nor could we determine the extent of collision reduction without controlled testing. However, I doubt there's any serious debate as to whether daytime lights help at least a bit.
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Old 10-17-23, 05:33 PM
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This conversation is getting on my nerves.

The study in the video I posted proved that there is benefit to daylight visibility lights. I pedaled for many years without the aid of them. When I first used one after a texting fleamale sideswiped me, I noticed a huge difference in the distance at which motorists noticed me from behind and the additional room they gave me before passing. There are many studies slanted toward what some people prefer us to believe. This study interested me because of my personal experiences. They mandate proper lighting for motor vehicles and enforce these laws on them. Not so much for bicycles.
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Old 10-17-23, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick
The study in the video I posted proved that there is benefit to daylight visibility lights. I pedaled for many years without the aid of them. When I first used one after a texting fleamale sideswiped me, I noticed a huge difference in the distance at which motorists noticed me from behind and the additional room they gave me before passing. There are many studies slanted toward what some people prefer us to believe. This study interested me because of my personal experiences. They mandate proper lighting for motor vehicles and enforce these laws on them. Not so much for bicycles.
Here, you might need this ...
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Old 10-18-23, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
As a driver, I prefer seeing cyclists from a distance and good lights ensure this. Hard to see how anyone could rationally argue against this.
I’ve seen countless irrational arguments here on BF. They are one of its most entertaining features and it gives a little insight as to why the World is so f@*%ed up!
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Old 10-18-23, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
I see no data there addressing the point in question.
Motorcycle DRLs and laws requiring them are increasing, yet this is not decreasing fatalities. This wasn't difficult to understand.
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Old 10-18-23, 08:26 AM
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Rick:
that was a joke. Note the highlighted word in my post. You vaguely made a reference to a part of the nervous system, then in your reply you spoke of a male flea. I thought you might get the gentle humor, but I guess not.

Most of the time I have a DRL on when I ride, but back in my motorcycle days I didn't notice any difference between DRL or no DRL. I did notice that people were better drivers when I had a softball bat sticking out of my backpack.

Maybe we should all carry one. Even better would be to make driving while holding a cell phone a primary offense and have the penalty for the first offence be a 30 day suspension of driving privileges (with impounding of the vehicle). Then make the penalty for each subsequent offence be progressively harsher.

Last edited by DangerousDanR; 10-18-23 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 10-18-23, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by TC1
Motorcycle DRLs and laws requiring them are increasing, yet this is not decreasing fatalities. This wasn't difficult to understand.
The data presented is valid for comparative purposes only for the period beginning in 2016. The data doesn't speak to the question of laws requiring lights which were generally enacted long before that.
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Old 10-18-23, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
This is an example of making 'perfect the enemy of good'. If flashing lights are idiotic and banned some places (Germany), they aren't banned here.
First off, there is no "if" -- flashing lights are idiotic. I've no idea where your "here" is, but they are banned in many places.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm
And here is where we ride. What is your objection now.
I'm sure that I just explained part of it. Flashing lights also do not scale. Go drive, or ride, somewhere with many cyclists using them. It is impossible to track directional changes, among other issues.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Also, I DOUBT flashing lights are banned on EVERYTHING in Germany.
Flashing lights are banned on non-emergency motor vehicles in many places -- again, for many good reasons.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm
They are banned on bicycles, we know that. It's a trope now. Why is that? So that bicycles aren't confused for something else maybe? It certainly isn't that flashing lights are idiotic or dangerous in some way.
Yes, it precisely is because they are idiotic and dangerous.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm
So, you better carry your own lights and, as I said earlier, the run time of most lights in flash mode is triple what it is in steady mode, so you better believe I flash that mofo like my life depended on it.
Now ask yourself how that tripling of run-time is possible, and what that indicates about the percentage of time your light is off.
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Old 10-18-23, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
The data presented is valid for comparative purposes only for the period beginning in 2016.
It would be preferable to understand the posted data before commenting on it. This claim is also not correct.
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Old 10-18-23, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Yes, but you're still in the same place where you were seen and accounted.
Only if you are stationary.

Originally Posted by FBinNY
Also note that the off interval of bike flashers is short, so driver awareness is restored fast enough to ensure safety.
Which, from the perspective of other road users, looks exactly like the cyclist turning off the road.

Originally Posted by FBinNY
In any case this thread is about DAYTIME running lights, and I've yet to see any bright enough to cause shadows.
Many of the ones I see are bright enough to force me to look away -- if I'm lucky enough to be able to do so at that point. Lots of cyclists are ignorant about lighting, and believe more and brighter is always better -- as these threads often display.

Traffic lighting is an engineering problem, and engineering problems are almost never solved by a "More more more" ethos.
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Old 10-18-23, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by TC1
It would be preferable to understand the posted data before commenting on it. This claim is also not correct.
Prove it. Provide comparative data for periods with and without laws on daytime lights.

And you would also need to include data on helmet laws, which the study indicates is believed to be a significant factor.

You have shown nothing which establishes a correlation with daytime light laws and death rates.

Last edited by jon c.; 10-18-23 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 10-18-23, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick
Some People have better things to do choose to do other less important things while driving than drive. You can't always watch your back. Lights help with this problem.
Better.
Regardless, I agree with your conclusion.
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Old 10-19-23, 09:01 AM
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Many of the ones I see are bright enough to force me to look away -- if I'm lucky enough to be able to do so at that point. Lots of cyclists are ignorant about lighting, and believe more and brighter is always better -- as these threads often display.

Traffic lighting is an engineering problem, and engineering problems are almost never solved by a "More more more" ethos.

If you are forced to look away due to the brightness, this means they are using them after dark. The flashers I use are only used in daylight. I have occasionally got compliments from motorists about how they can see me from a great distance. I not only have one of the brighter flashers because it is bright. I bought is because it has a much higher angle of visibility. I hate coming up on somebody with flashers at night in my car or bicycle. I agree with the Germans only for nighttime. I have a non flasher German light for night.
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Old 10-19-23, 11:04 AM
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It's the headlights of cars/trucks that are getting brighter and tough to deal with during night time driving. Bike lights are bright, but they just don't compare to headlights of vehicles.
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Old 10-19-23, 07:47 PM
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Daytime running lights are great, but I'll always remember the sunny afternoon I was riding home along the highway and was passed by a woman with a bright flashing tail light and a hi-viz orange pannier. As she faded in the distance the last thing I saw of her was that patch of orange pannier. That's one reason I switched to a hi-viz yellow helmet, as much as I'd prefer purple.
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Old 10-22-23, 01:30 PM
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Is the purpose of our lights to help us bee seen, or do we not want to just be seen, but rather to quickly be recognized as a bicyclist? For me, I don't normally benefit from being recognized as a bicyclist from the front, but I do from the rear. Steady on the front, flashing on the rear is my choice. I complement that with a high vis yellow helmet, a high vis shirt and often high vis socks.
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Old 10-22-23, 02:08 PM
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Is the purpose of our lights to help us bee seen, or do we not want to just be seen, but rather to quickly be recognized as a bicyclist? For me, I don't normally benefit from being recognized as a bicyclist from the front, but I do from the rear. Steady on the front, flashing on the rear is my choice. I complement that with a high vis yellow helmet, a high vis shirt and often high vis socks.

I want to be seen in time for a distracted motorist to not hit me. I could care less what they think I am. I have driven many miles in large trucks and other vehicles. I hate the very brite flashers at night. I won't run flashers at night. I think that people who run flashers at night are akin to what comes out the rear end of a cow. I have rode a bicycle to work at night for several years and never had a problem. I was t boned once and have been side swiped or brushed several times and all incidents were in daylight. The t bone was intentional and one of the sideswipes was celphoneitis.The very bright flashing tail light makes a big difference.
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Old 10-22-23, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick
I want to be seen in time for a distracted motorist to not hit me. I could care less what they think I am. I have driven many miles in large trucks and other vehicles. I hate the very brite flashers at night. I won't run flashers at night. I think that people who run flashers at night are akin to what comes out the rear end of a cow. I have rode a bicycle to work at night for several years and never had a problem. I was t boned once and have been side swiped or brushed several times and all incidents were in daylight. The t bone was intentional and one of the sideswipes was celphoneitis.The very bright flashing tail light makes a big difference.

My thinking is that closing speed is of great concern for drivers approaching from behind. A marginally engaged driver glances ahead and sees a steady red light, it doesn't register as a slower moving vehicle. A marginally engaged driver who see's a flashing light may process the need to reduce speed. Nothing will prevent an intentional hit, and nothing will get the attention of someone who is absorbed in their distraction.
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Old 10-22-23, 07:05 PM
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My thinking is that closing speed is of great concern for drivers approaching from behind. A marginally engaged driver glances ahead and sees a steady red light, it doesn't register as a slower moving vehicle. A marginally engaged driver who see's a flashing light may process the need to reduce speed. Nothing will prevent an intentional hit, and nothing will get the attention of someone who is absorbed in their distraction.

Since I put the flasher on near 7 years ago the cars start moving over a lot sooner than before using the flasher. A woman texting sideswiped me. I wonder how far down the road she traveled before looking up. This motivated me to find the most powerful most expensive flasher. The cell phone has become the thing I worry about the most. Not drunk , tired or stoned drivers but cell phone users. A friend of mine who works in law enforcement almost lost his life due to a coed sending selfies to her friend. She totaled his cruiser.
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