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Los Angeles Times article - rider doored and died

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Los Angeles Times article - rider doored and died

Old 02-22-24, 03:14 PM
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I do feel sorry for you. It must really suck to live in an area where the DA and his office is nationally known to be very soft on crime, but he will prosecute cyclists for taking the lane to prevent a dooring.



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Old 02-22-24, 06:28 PM
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Ah, I see. So that's where we must part company on the spirit of the law interpretations. But, you do you. I belong to a subset demographic that never comes off well trying to explain nuances of legal interpretation to LEO when confronted.
That was quite convoluted of you. I believe I have a right to safety. I mostly don't ride in bicycle lanes. The few times that I have ended up on a rode with a dangerous situation I do what is safe for me. I do not require myself to be put in danger because some confused person wants' to interpret the law for their popular political point of view.
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Old 02-22-24, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick
That was quite convoluted of you. I believe I have a right to safety. I mostly don't ride in bicycle lanes. The few times that I have ended up on a rode with a dangerous situation I do what is safe for me. I do not require myself to be put in danger because some confused person wants' to interpret the law for their popular political point of view.
I think he's saying that he's a minority or other group that gets held to a different standard than straight white people by cops.
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Old 02-23-24, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
I think he's saying that he's a minority or other group that gets held to a different standard than straight white people by cops.
Some people play that "card" regardless of its applicability to the discussion, as if it trumps all other arguments, experiences, or facts on the ground.
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Old 02-23-24, 11:11 AM
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I very nearly died after being doored. I was on a motorcycle. The car had stopped, blocking all traffic in the middle of the road. No signals, no one in front of him, just stopped. "Eff you, everyone behind me." I slowly passed all the stopped cars behind this person, but started to accelerate when I was passing the offending vehicle. BAM! Uber passenger opened their door. He was dropping off a passenger to a bar. Broken collarbone (again), broken clavicle and two ribs.
And the cherry on top is that the officer claimed I was at fault for passing on the right. I was too deeply in pain to argue my case, but that POS was stopped and holding up traffic for nearly a minute.
Lesson is: Life Ain't Fair.
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Old 02-23-24, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Some people play that "card" regardless of its applicability to the discussion, as if it trumps all other arguments, experiences, or facts on the ground.
It isn't a "card" when someone says they aren't comfortable arguing with police. More like a reality
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Old 02-23-24, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Some people play that "card" regardless of its applicability to the discussion, as if it trumps all other arguments, experiences, or facts on the ground.
It's definitely applicable here, where a person is simply stating that riding outside of the bike lane would give cops an excuse to harass them, search them, detain them, whatever.
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Old 02-23-24, 01:08 PM
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It's definitely applicable here, where a person is simply stating that riding outside of the bike lane would give cops an excuse to harass them, search them, detain them, whatever.
An officer questioned my actions once in Florida. I stated why I didn't ride in the bike lane next to the parked cars and he had no problem with it.
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Old 02-23-24, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick
An officer questioned my actions once in Florida. I stated why I didn't ride in the bike lane next to the parked cars and he had no problem with it.
And you are African American?
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Old 02-23-24, 01:31 PM
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Many cops don't know the rules for bikes. I've had two cops give me sh*t for not FRAPPING. Once when I went all the way over to the left to get into the Left turning lanes. The other time was because I took the lane when in traffic at a stop at a Red light -- I do this to prevent a Right Hook. It also makes it easier for conscientious drivers, because they can easily see me in their Rear View mirror.

BTW, just yesterday as I was at the gym on the treadmill I was watching an episode of Hot Bench (court TV). And there was a case of one motorists bashing into another motorist's opened car door. And one judge did mention, that usually it's the fault of the person that opened the door, because it' incumbent on them to ensure it's safe.

I agree with that, but I ain't taking my chances, I'll continue to stay clear of doors.








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Old 02-23-24, 04:10 PM
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There are no guaranteed ways to prevent dooring. The best one can hope for is to reduce the odds. My first and last time doored was in 1966, and I escaped uninjured, though both the bike and car were damaged.

With decades of urban riding experience, the best I can off is vigilance and situational awareness. For example, one thing I do is watch down the road for anyone parking. That's a car I mentally tag as having a driver to open his door anytime soon, and stay prepared to deal with it.

Also, since I live and ride in NYC and close in suburbs, I make it a point to ride to the left side of one way streets. The logic is simple, all cars have drivers, but only a small minority have passengers, so fewer will be opening they're passenger side doors.

BTW- despite my age, I still have the reflexes of a cat, something I credit to urban riding in the NYC metro area.
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Old 02-23-24, 04:36 PM
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In 1966 I was being potty trained



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Old 02-23-24, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by work4bike
In 1966 I was being potty trained
Successfully?






Sorry, I never could resist a straight line.
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Old 02-23-24, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
It isn't a "card" when someone says they aren't comfortable arguing with police. More like a reality
Originally Posted by urbanknight
It's definitely applicable here, where a person is simply stating that riding outside of the bike lane would give cops an excuse to harass them, search them, detain them, whatever.
Anybody can speculate and be uncomfortable about dire events that might happen to them, somewhere/anywhere if/when the stars do not align correctly, especially if they are susceptible to believing they are always the victim of evil forces.

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Old 02-23-24, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Anybody can speculate and be uncomfortable about dire events that might happen to them, somewhere/anywhere if/when the stars do not align correctly, especially if they are susceptible to believing they are always the victim of evil forces.
Spoken like someone who doesn't understand. It's ok, I don't understand either, but I listen to those with real experience to try and get closer to understanding. I'm sure it only takes once falling victim to something like this to make someone take simple precautions to avoid them in the future.
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Old 02-23-24, 07:45 PM
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And you are African American?
I was unaware that any of this had to do with someone's racist experience with a porkalite.
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Old 02-23-24, 08:09 PM
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There are no guaranteed ways to prevent dooring. The best one can hope for is to reduce the odds. My first and last time doored was in 1966, and I escaped uninjured, though both the bike and car were damaged.
I was doored once. I was not hurt but the bicycle and the car were. It only took once for me to figure out how not to be doored again. I guarantee anybody can also stop being doored by just not doing one thing. That one thing is to just stop riding in the door zone. It is not that complicated. There is no law, amount of peer pressure or brainwashing that can Cause or make me ride my bicycle in the door zone.
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Old 02-23-24, 09:54 PM
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Just stay out of the 'door zone'.
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Old 02-24-24, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by urbanknight
Spoken like someone who doesn't understand. It's ok, I don't understand either, but I listen to those with real experience to try and get closer to understanding. I'm sure it only takes once falling victim to something like this to make someone take simple precautions to avoid them in the future.
I understand that there are some who post as if they are afraid that most motorists are always texting (or otherwise distracted while driving), or are fools indifferent to the continuing health of any bicyclist in their presence, and/or that all LEOs are racist brutes out to harass bicyclists, resulting in a miasma of ever present danger of while bicycling. I also understand that some posters may have reached these conclusions about this extreme level of high risk all around them by "listening" to those who post on the Internet of such fears and alleged "experiences" and incorporated these fears and anecdotes into their own version of bicycling reality.
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Old 02-24-24, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I understand that there are some who post as if they are afraid that most motorists are always texting (or otherwise distracted while driving), or are fools indifferent to the continuing health of any bicyclist in their presence, and/or that all LEOs are racist brutes out to harass bicyclists, resulting in a miasma of ever present danger of while bicycling. I also understand that some posters may have reached these conclusions about this extreme level of high risk all around them by "listening" to those who post on the Internet of such fears and alleged "experiences" and incorporated these fears and anecdotes into their own version of bicycling reality.
I am going to spell this out:

1. Riding around cars has always been a danger, but distracted driving is getting worse. in the last few years, 58% of all car trips involved illegal interaction with phones in 2022. So it isn't cyclist's paranoia that drivers are not watching the road for them as well - things have gotten worse. But that isn't an attitude toward cyclists, it is simply a decrease in attention to what is happening on the road, which definitely makes it less likely for drivers to see and avoid the bikers they are passing.

2. Increased phone usage has also effected the car door situation - most of us learned to ride on streets at a time when people got out of their cars immediately after parking. Now drivers commonly spend a minute or two interacting with their phones before opening their doors, so the chance of seeing a car parking and being forewarned about doors opening has changed. Additionally, Uber drivers are constantly pulling over, using their phones and then pulling back into traffic in a much less deliberate way than someone who just got in their vehicle.

3. And it shocks me to have to say this in 2024, but the BLM movement did not happen because people read too much social media. For a large number of people in the US, interactions with law enforcement are largely negative and are to be avoided. So the suggestion that all cyclists can flaunt traffic laws and then argue their way out of a ticket with the cops completely misses the fact that those people have a real concern that negative police interactions put their lives in more risk than having a car accident. And unless you count yourself among the people that experience racist policing, it really isn't something you have the privilege to judge.



The advocacy board on bike forums is definitely full of people with impractical ideas about the nature of risk and fault. But that doesn't mean many risks don't exist, and that the means to mitigate them work for everyone.
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Old 02-24-24, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I understand that there are some who post as if they are afraid that most motorists are always texting (or otherwise distracted while driving), or are fools indifferent to the continuing health of any bicyclist in their presence, and/or that all LEOs are racist brutes out to harass bicyclists, resulting in a miasma of ever present danger of while bicycling. I also understand that some posters may have reached these conclusions about this extreme level of high risk all around them by "listening" to those who post on the Internet of such fears and alleged "experiences" and incorporated these fears and anecdotes into their own version of bicycling reality.
It's error management theory in action. Certain events such as doorings may be statistically infrequent, but when they do happen the consequences are severe. For any given situation the person evaluates the following: What is the relative cost of assuming there is a danger when none exists (Type 1 error) versus assuming there isn't a danger when it does exist (Type 2 error)? With cycling it often makes more sense to assume there is a danger even if the likelihood of it is low, because the cost of assuming the opposite is far worse.
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Old 02-24-24, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Rick
Many so called bike lanes are well designed death traps. I read that being doored is the #1 cause of death for bicyclists in England. When I see a so called bike lane designed with the benefit of riding in the door zone I refuse to ride in it. Many people will just ride in them having no clue as to the consequences. If there is another rode going my way. I will use it, If not. I can ride out into traffic around the door zone or walk my bicycle on the sidewalk to get past the problem.
Exactly why I don't ride in bike lanes.
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Old 02-24-24, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
I am going to spell this out:

1. Riding around cars has always been a danger, but distracted driving is getting worse. in the last few years, 58% of all car trips involved illegal interaction with phones in 2022. So it isn't cyclist's paranoia that drivers are not watching the road for them as well - things have gotten worse. But that isn't an attitude toward cyclists, it is simply a decrease in attention to what is happening on the road, which definitely makes it less likely for drivers to see and avoid the bikers they are passing.

2. Increased phone usage has also effected the car door situation - most of us learned to ride on streets at a time when people got out of their cars immediately after parking. Now drivers commonly spend a minute or two interacting with their phones before opening their doors, so the chance of seeing a car parking and being forewarned about doors opening has changed. Additionally, Uber drivers are constantly pulling over, using their phones and then pulling back into traffic in a much less deliberate way than someone who just got in their vehicle.

3. And it shocks me to have to say this in 2024, but the BLM movement did not happen because people read too much social media. For a large number of people in the US, interactions with law enforcement are largely negative and are to be avoided. So the suggestion that all cyclists can flaunt traffic laws and then argue their way out of a ticket with the cops completely misses the fact that those people have a real concern that negative police interactions put their lives in more risk than having a car accident. And unless you count yourself among the people that experience racist policing, it really isn't something you have the privilege to judge.



The advocacy board on bike forums is definitely full of people with impractical ideas about the nature of risk and fault. But that doesn't mean many risks don't exist, and that the means to mitigate them work for everyone.
I agree that safety "advice" offered on bike forums is often impractical ideas and often is oblivious to the nature of evaluating and managing risk.

Of course many risks exist in all facets of living, the sensible answer is to evaluate the severity-probability of potential negative resulting from exposure to the hazard, evaluate same for the alternatives and make the best choice.

In relation to this thread, simple solutions such as "Never ride in a door zone!" offered by some to the dooring hazard assumes that better alternatives are available to every cyclist at every location where door zones exist. In many cases that involve door zones adjacent to busy free flowing traffic streets where the traffic speed is >20mph and slower or less busy streets are not nearby, many cyclists who rate their own safety over maximum "efficiency" would evaluate the risks and consider the door zone as their better and less risky choice to a solution that would require them to "take the lane" in the midst of busy traffic that is moving much faster than they can maintain. Such a decision might require adjust their attention to include devoting more time to nearby parked and stopped cars and less to maintaining maximum possible speed.

Or the cyclist unduly frightened by the door zone hazard without a better alternative may choose to just not ride at all.

The hazard of jawboning about a ticket with an LEO "enforcing" a law against cyclists avoiding a door zone by riding outside of a marked bike lane, even that of bigoted LEOs harshly enforcing bike lane restrictions against their victims of choice seems to be made up of mostly of fears based on speculation, hype, and a few isolated anecdotes from a few locations, or in a few cases non-applicable situations involving bicycle club formations riding two or more abreast on the highway.

Any bicyclist with a lick of common sense knows enough to be careful (and be prepared to slow down or even stop) around stopped taxis and other vehicles that suddenly pull over or stop in the street for unknown reasons; all such vehicles radiate "door zone hazard" and do require the same attention level as a painted door zone.
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Old 02-24-24, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike

Any bicyclist with a lick of common sense knows enough to be careful (and be prepared to slow down or even stop) around stopped taxis and other vehicles that suddenly pull over or stop in the street for unknown reasons; all such vehicles radiate "door zone hazard" and do require the same attention level as a painted door zone.
This isn't very useful now that Ubers are more common than cabs and are unmarked. They commonly pull over for minutes at a time awaiting a new fare, and then pull out as if they were still in the process of driving.

But if you give all pulled over/parked cars about 3 or 4 feet of clearance, it will be much harder to get hit by a front fender or a door.


Personally, I was nearly doored by a passenger getting out of the right side of an Uber in the middle of a traffic lane while creeping up to the light, along the shoulder. Phones and unregulated ride sharing have really made drivers generally less predictable in the city.
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Old 02-24-24, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I understand that there are some who post as if they are afraid that most motorists are always texting (or otherwise distracted while driving), or are fools indifferent to the continuing health of any bicyclist in their presence, and/or that all LEOs are racist brutes out to harass bicyclists, resulting in a miasma of ever present danger of while bicycling. I also understand that some posters may have reached these conclusions about this extreme level of high risk all around them by "listening" to those who post on the Internet of such fears and alleged "experiences" and incorporated these fears and anecdotes into their own version of bicycling reality.
Got it. My point is that it doesn't matter how prevalent the danger is when the consequences are so dire. JW Fas explained it well. I wear a seatbelt even though I haven't been in an accident (except one fender bender tap) since I started driving almost 30 years ago. Statistically I may never need that seatbelt, but it's a simple preventative measure just in case and it could be just one time that I pay dearly. As a cyclist I know that drivers don't want to hit me and most of them are careful and respectful, but I'm still going to ride like they don't notice me because it keeps me from finding the uncommon driver who isn't paying attention or isn't caring.

I see your point about the LEO issue, but from what I have heard from friends, it's more common than someone like me might presume.
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