Originally Posted by Eyes Roll (Post 23757653)

I carry pepper spray. After extensive research, I narrowed it down to POM pepper spray. As a daily bike commuter, for the past 2 years, I always keep it in the front pocket of my safety vest whenever I ride. As crazy as it sounds, I frequently ride 15-plus miles of heavily wooded trails after 9 p.m., a time when I rarely see other pedestrians. (Again, as crazy as it sounds) In addition to the pepper spray, I carry a folding pocket knife at night, for self-defense. While I am not concerned about motorists, I am always prepared to defend myself against a random stranger who might emerge from the trees to try to rob me. My preparation stems from the fact that I am a survivor of armed robbery in the past. Ironically, that incident happened while I was sitting in my parked car in a busy downtown area with lots of people walking nearby.

I am about to order a new POM pepper spray. I've heard they lose their potency after about 2 years.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23757405)

So? Does anyone think there is a nationwide scourge of drivers getting out of their vehicles to assault cyclists?

This is one isolated incident, but you guys want to talk about it like its a major trend worthy of a universal response by cyclists.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23757405)

Meanwhile, there are groups that do face actual systemic attacks, and there is the general risk that everyone bears of random violence that is unrelated to lycra shorts. But neither of those categories are cycling related.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23757405)

If folks want to talk about self defense for those riding with minimal gear - great idea. Pepper spray/gel is good for dogs as well. Your bike can also be used as a barrier, like how riot cops use them. Frame pumps are useful, too. But this incident contains no general lessons about common driver behavior or common preparations cyclists should make because they are cycling. It seems more like the tendency on this board for cyclists to feel as if they are some special group of beleaguered citizens that are targets of massive levels of discrimination. It is weird.

Originally Posted by JW Fas (Post 23757682)

That was neither expressed nor implied. However, this incident is yet another to stack on top of the pile that have already happened, which have been written about in news articles and/or been published in online videos. The theme among them is clear: If the cyclists involved had implements to protect themselves, the outcomes likely would have been different.



And they have their own dedicated forums for discussing their plight.



I hope I didn't convey the sentiment that attacks against cyclists are frequent, because that wasn't my intent. However, there is something to be said about the probability of an event versus its cost to the person/people involved. I'm sure you carry homeowners insurance on your house. What is the probability that your house will be leveled by some rare natural disaster? Pretty low. However, what is the cost to you for not having said insurance if/when it's needed? Astronomical. I'm also willing to bet you wear a seat belt every time you drive your car, but the probability of getting into a crash where you'd need the seat belt to save your life is also very low. And yet, the personal cost for not wearing it when it's needed is incredibly high (life-altering injury or death). I don't think it's unreasonable to recommend that cyclists carry a 1.5-ounce can of pepper gel in the unlikely event they need it, because the cost of not having it when needed is rather high. It's also the best bang for the buck not just in terms of money spent but also in terms of legal hassle.

Originally Posted by JW Fas (Post 23757669)

Is the gel illegal where you live? I carry Sabre gel, because it won't get easily blown by the wind.

Originally Posted by JW Fas (Post 23757669)

Also, don't count on your pocket knife as a weapon. I carry one as a tool, but with sweaty hands that thing is gonna slip and cut yourself, and as I mentioned before it carries legal ramifications that you don't want to deal with. If you find yourself in a physical altercation (this assumes de-escalation has failed or not been possible), you want something that will disable your attacker long enough for you to get the duck out of dodge whilst avoiding messy legal consequences.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23757405)

…
This is one isolated incident, but you guys want to talk about it like its a major trend worthy of a universal response by cyclists. Meanwhile, there are groups that do face actual systemic attacks, and there is the general risk that everyone bears of random violence that is unrelated to lycra shorts. But neither of those categories are cycling related…

Originally Posted by mschwett (Post 23757788)

from the article :


so this guy displays (allegedly) a pattern of aggressive behavior towards cyclists and allegedly hits one in this incident. the issue is that nobody did anything about the previous incidents, which makes it more than an isolated incident but rather the result of an unsurprising lack of enforcement against his past behavior. you’ve got to be pretty bad for your neighbors to know that you aggressively confront children on bicycles, and any reasonable community’s law enforcement entities would take action. but they didn’t.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23757810)

What does this one person's psychosis have to do with you, me or cyclists in general?

Originally Posted by Paul Barnard (Post 23757978)

You could ask the cyclists who were assaulted.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23757810)

What does this one person's psychosis have to do with you, me or cyclists in general?

Originally Posted by mschwett (Post 23758096)

we live on a society in which antisocial and psychotic behavior like this is tolerated (at least a little) if it fits in certain categories. for example, a man in a car in whatever place this is harassing cyclists. an extreme case, no doubt, but meanwhile elderly drivers here in San Francisco accidentally kill entire families and get a slap on the wrist. all part and parcel of the same pattern, which seems relevant in the “advocacy and safety” forum. if you don’t feel it’s relevant there are many other wonderful threads to participate in.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23758106)

That makes no sense. An elderly person that is unable to control their car and hurts someone has ZERO to do with a guy who purposely attacks people. And the guy who attacked the cyclists isn't "tolerated". What story did you read?

It isn't that one is better or worse than the other, but they are unrelated in their cause or prevention.


The fact that you package that kind of stuff together is exactly what I'm talking about. It is just emotional reaction to the fact that cyclists are the victims, not that there is a systemic problem to solve. Unless "advocacy" just means sitting around and complaining.

Originally Posted by mschwett (Post 23758107)

they are related by the lax response : an elderly person who shouldn’t be driving gets a slap on the wrist, a psychotic man’s behavior continues unchecked because nobody cares. they are related in cause (people behind the wheel of vehicles who shouldn’t be) and related in solution (more protected infrastructure and more powerful enforcement of existing laws of both the road and violence in general.)

the fact that you don’t see the relationship is … interesting.

as for what story i read and his behavior being tolerated (up to this point), read it again.



clearly his behavior was tolerated. he did it, as noted by his neighbors, and he still had a motor vehicle and license to drive.

Originally Posted by musicman1 (Post 23758193)

Based on this discussion I just ordered 2, 1.5 oz multi directional sprayers of Sabre crossfire gel pepper spray. Thankfully I only ever had words w one driver when I lived in NJ who seemed to be bothered that I didn’t have lights on my bike even though I was riding in broad day light but now in rural southern DE my biggest concern are creatures of the 4 leg variety especially since I favor riding on the farm roads which are the roads far less traveled by vehicles and less lived on
in general. All in all I’ve learned that when provoked it’s always better to try to verbally diffuse the situation or run away and live to see another day but sometimes you just have to react quickly and protect yourself. The police won’t be just around the corner here. If some pepper spray gives me the edge against a 2 or 4 leg assault then I’m gonna use it and get the hell out of there and then call the authorities.

Originally Posted by Iride01 (Post 23758420)

Using pepper spray can make you the aggressor. And you might be the one getting arrested.

Originally Posted by Eyes Roll (Post 23758271)

'Silence' is the best way to calm things down, even when you’re angry and feel like yelling. Say nothing, walk away, or let the aggressor go first.

Talking back, shouting, or honking will only make matters worse. This applies to everyday interactions—with a coworker, your boss, a customer, or another driver on the road. Survival is skill everyone must develop, given how many people act unpredictably these days.