Helmet Head

How about everything to the right of the stripe is glass and other debris? Happens all the time around here.

We don't get much rain around here (avg 10"/year), but when we do, the bike lanes are totally trashed in many areas.

noisebeam

Here is a WOL video (1.4MB) with me riding about where a bike lane stripe would be added:

Dec 19, 2005 WOLPass

If a stripe was added cars would be further to the right and I would be forced further to the right too, too close to the curb to deal with obsticals, right turners and good visibility. Same road has a BL and I ride on the stripe, but in the winter its too dark to make video in the morning.

Al

sbhikes

Here's a really cool video/pics of what it's like to ride a trike. The white line is just a suggestion for us. Toward the end take a look at the wide berth he gets.

link to trike

Roody

patc--Bike lanes around here are typically 1.5 to 2 feet, not meters like you have in Ottawa.

Al-- I agree with your observation that cars buzz you in the bike lane much more than in the traffic lane. In fact, I almost never have a car within 2 feet in a traffic lane, wide or narrow. But they get that close frequently if there is a bike lane -- whether I am riding in the traffic lane or in the bike lane--no difference.

It seems like some cagers believe that you are "supposed" to be in the bike lane so you are fair game if you are not. This is my biggest complaint about bike lanes, my only complaint really. The false perception that paint stripes protect cyclists is believed by many cagers as well as many cyclists.

I'd like to see a study that looked at the correlation between bike lanes and side-swipes of cyclists, in order to confirm my observation.

patc

Conveniently forgot the other times I addressed this with you? Hoping my answer will give you something to twist around to your PROV?


Gee, lets see. If I am going straight, I use the bike lane, duh. If I am turning left, I use the left turn lane, duh. If I turn right, I use the right-turn lane, duh. On the rare occasion that a road was significant enough to have a bike lane but didn't rate a turn lane, you turn right from the rightmost lane (in this case the bike lane), and left from the leftmost lane. Duh. And no, that doesn't cause any problems, for bikes or buses (which end up in the same situation).


Its been suggested before that you need to get out more.

Yes, here as well. Not really a problem. While the ideal is to have a right-turn lane whenever a bike lane is present (for that matter, the ideal is to always have a right-turn lane at any important intersection) the few problems don't really cause any actual problems, no matter what you think.


I have answered both many times. Bugger off, this response was you one indulgence for this year. Hope you make the best of it.

patc

Probably one of those times when we each worked from "obvious" assumptions.

patc

We lack a provincial standard. 1.5m is recommended as the minimum for Ottawa, and only to be used when 2.0m can not be accommodated for some reason. Up to 3.0m is suggested for busy roads. Unfortunately these recommendations are new, and "Ottawa" is an amalgamation of 5 previous municipalities and several townships, so implementations vary a lot.

How can anyone ride a bike in 1.5 feet? That's not enough clearance for your handlebars. No wonder so many Americans here have rabid reactions to bike lanes. In my mind a "lane" should have clearance for the whole vehicle with a safe buffer zone!

If I am riding roughly entered in a bike lane, the only time I need to worry about a passing vehicle (staying in its own lane) is a speeding 18-wheeler... the wake on those can be brutal.



Its a valid concern, but I'm not willing to rule out something just because of the ignorance of others. Everyone loses when you do that. Why not just advocate FOR bike lanes and FOR driver education? Out of curiosity, what's the modal share of cycling in your city?

For such a study to be valid, it would need some common definition of "bike lane". I would also like to see a city-by-city comparison, including WOL. My biggest complaint about cycling in Ottawa (and its shared by many other cyclists I speak with) is being passed unsafely when sharing the lane, WOL or otherwise.

Actually, let me amend that to my second biggest complaint. Mu current biggest complaint is all the freaking snow we have, with only freezing rain to break the monotony.

genec

Pat around here the bike lanes are about 5 feet wide... not 1.5 to 2 feet wide. That five feet equates to about 1.5 meters.

Any place with 1.5 to 2 foot bike lanes, does have a real problem.

noisebeam

patc-
There are a wide range of BL widths in the US. Most standarized designs are much larger than the 2ft that Roody mentioned. Maybe 5-6ft.
Take a look at this link (it notes US national standard is 5ft, not sure if true):
https://azbikelaw.org/articles/RayRoad.html
Note the BL shown on the top left photo - this is a proper BL design and is about as wide as they come round here in phx-metro area. If I ride in a BL like this (but left biased like the cyclist in the photo) I am sure to get buzzed.

We also sometimes have shoulders separated by a fog line. Sometimes these shoulders are wide enough to look just like a BL, but as they are short of standards. I also ride on streets with marked shoulders as wide or wider as the standard BL width, but they are not marked as BL for a number of reasons I can speculate about (not maintained, not done right at intersections, etc.) These psuedo BLs cause me problems just like regular offical BLs do.

Al

noisebeam

Are you 100% sure these are official marked and signed as such BLs?

Al

noisebeam

What about riding on a fog line?

This 5MB video is me riding mostly on the fog line that defines a wide shoulder that 99% of people think is a bike lane.

Jan05, 2006 NotABikeLane

Al

patc

So why ride left biased? I'm not trying to be judgemental, but this doesn't make any sense to me. While I don't always agree with you, I do respect your opinions I assume there is a reason.

Here is my reasoning. I should ride in any lane (bike lane or otherwise) in a position such that I will be safe and comfortably from any vehicle passing me in another lane - providing all parts of that vehicle stays "within the lines". I would apply that rule to all vehicles, not just bikes, to me its part of using the road responsibly.

So what happens if surface conditions means I can't ride in a safe position, as described above? Say snow accumulation at the curb, for example, has narrowed the bike lane. In that case the bike lane is not currently usable and I don't use it. I will use the next lane over, in whatever position seems appropriate in that lane but completely within that lane. That's just the way lanes work, to my mind, I can't condone doing otherwise. Deep down I'm probably more vehicular than most VCers on this board, I'm just not fanatical about preaching my version of the gospel. I also apply plenty of fudging, and sometimes ignore the law a bit. I keep in mind that my bike is also a great off-road vehicle - but when on the road I generally follow the rules of the road, and that includes riding within a lane.

What I don't have to deal with, and most contributors here do, are aggressive drivers who don't think I belong on the road. I think one guy yelled at me to get off the road last spring some time.. may have been further back than that. I often use the Queen Elizabeth Driveway, for example, which has pathways on both sides (not bike lanes, MUPs) and no one has ever told me to get off the road there.



What problems do the pseudo-BLs cause you?

sbhikes

I will ride right on the line on highway 1 between Ventura and Seacliff. The pavement is very rough and the line is very smooth so you can go faster with less vibration. The vibration is significant and can become almost debilitating after a while.

I will also ride on the line in a scenario where there is a right turn lane and I need to go straight and I wish to filter to the front. I'll ride right on the line dividing the right turn and straight lane as if it was my own tiny little bike lane. Nobody has misunderstood this yet.

noisebeam

The same as BLs, do I have to hash it out again.

-drivers yelling at me to get in the BL
-having to be more agressive to merge over the fog line compared to no line at all
-fog lines going all the way up to the stop line of the intersection (related to above)
-some drivers not adjusting lane position if they are in auto pilot between the line

'problems' is too strong a word, what I should say is more often a hassle compared to having no lines at all.

ps- I support government funding for bike facilties (are you surprised HH) but I have a big problem with 85% of the results of that spending. Please don't ask me to explain this mixed up point of view

Al

noisebeam

Why not left? Quickly and not so thoughoughly...
-Too far out of the way of appoaching motorists. When on the line or in the lane I can see them react and if they don't I can move into lane.
-Right hooks
-Debris - sure go around it, but on bad days I'd end up swerving a bit too much, but more important is hard to see debris. When its a WOL there is always less debris.

Why not in the adjacent lane? Cause I have a pidgeon on my shoulder. Actually because I'm sick of the crap I get from drivers when I do, I get enought when riding in NOL and personally find the line a good compromise between abuse and safety. Believe me I've tried both ways. Motorists are actually far more understanding and tollerant of riding in the center of a NOL compared to riding in the travel lane when there is a BL or wide shoulder that seems available to them.

Al

ItsJustMe

The problem is that half the drivers out there are below average. Some of them are downright frightningly incompetent. If all but the bottom 0.1% of drivers were great, and that 1 of 1000 were homicidal, none of us would last a week.

I agree that the average motorist is great. It's the 1 in 100,000 road-raging freak, or the 1 in 10,000 distracted driver that is going to getcha.

chipcom 

The thought just crossed my mind as I read the last few posts...if deer could write and had their own forum I'm sure it would sound a lot like BF & us!

I-Like-To-Bike

Pictures of alleged 1.5 to 2 foot bike lanes to include their marking and the surrounding environment would be of interest.

Helmet Head

Roody, the U.S. standard width for bike lanes is minimum of 4 feet, with 5 feet recommended.

Any jurisdiction that paints bike lane narrow than 4 feet wide is in violation of standard traffic engineering practices. Note sure if there is any teeth behind that, but I've never seen a 1.5 foot wide bike lane! As Pat pointed out, a bike cannot even fit in 1.5 feet, much less have any buffer space.

noisebeam

I wonder if the mix up is the same as discussed in the link I posted above, to repeat:

https://azbikelaw.org/articles/RayRoad.html

Al

Helmet Head

Only Roody will be able to tell us. That's a good article.

DCCommuter

I have to wonder what they were thinking when they painted the white line in that picture. What purpose does it serve?

noisebeam

Maybe from traditional design of putting a fog line (reflective white paint) that helps define the roadway edge in the night?

The road I ride on most is a WOL, I can see where the pavement used to have a fog line painted and it has been removed for most miles of this road. The pavement is still a bit smoother where the line used to be.

Al

Roody

These 18-24 inch wide jokes absolutely are marked on the pavement and with signs as bike lanes. Of course they are actually just (poorly) paved shoulders that somebody decided to call bike lanes. Not only are they narrow, they contain sewer grates, potholes, overhanging branches, and all the debris the cars sweep in there.

Folks, if your town is thinking about bike lanes, be careful before you jump on the bandwagon. You just might get something you can't live with (literally).

OTOH, Lansing does have one of the finest MUPs I've ever seen. It goes 13 miles (I believe) right through the center of the city, without even once intersecting with a street. It's pretty too, right on the banks of the Grand and Red Cedar rivers.

patc

Hmm. I still wonder if you're not just setting yourself up for hassle, but out experiences and locale differ widely so I can't really comment.


Sounds like you deal with a very poor cycling environment in how drivers treat you! I'm lucky there, although I think a 3% cycling modal share has a lot to do with that luck.

Thinking about it, I seldom ride on roads with shoulders. Most of our roads have an "urban cross section", that is a raised concrete curb but no shoulder or fog line. I'll have to ask around to see how other cyclists in less urban areas get treated on roads with real shoulders.

From my POV there are only three things keeping Ottawa from being a cycling heaven:

1- Snow removal on bike lanes and some important pathways (e.g. links under rail lines)
2- Keep the bike racks on buses through the winter.
3- Teach drivers to pass safely in WOLs! (Or get rid of lane sharing entirely).

And points 1 and 2 above are part of the (still Draft) Ottawa Cycling Plan.