Daily Commute

That's not my experience with Columbus' busses. They buzz me when I'm silly enough to leave them space in a lane. If there's a second traffic lane, they have to use it to get around me. And in the end, busses hold me up about as much as I hold them up, so I don't have a problem if they get stuck behind me for thirty seconds.

What's interesting is that the head of Portland's bike group (BTA) says that the bus company is great. Why do you think his opinion is different than every other person (cyclist or motorist) who has commented about the busses there?


Derath,

Why couldn't the bus have just waited behind the cyclist? Passing like that didn't advance him much at all because the cyclist was able to catch up.

And yes, busses sometimes pass too close, but cyclists sometimes run red lights. Neither activity is safe. Bus drivers are professionals. If they drive unsafely, their employers should subject the drivers to a progressive disciplinary system.

Does anyone in Portland have experience with complaining about dangerous bus drivers? I've had good experiences in Columbus.

Edit: I agree with noisebeam below. Reporting the driver would have been the smartest thing to do. Of course, that assumes that the Portland bus company takes such complaints seriously. And I don't know how the company handles complaints. Given how bad nearly everyone thinks the bus drivers are, I doubt that the complaint system is very good. Do any readers have any experiences with the Portland bus company's complaint system?

Editted to correct a type-o after it was quoted. Sorry.

noisebeam

This is key.
The first, second and even third incidents the first course of action is to provdie the bus number, route, time, location, etc. to the bus company as a complaint. Not to whack the bus and then stop in front of it.
But if this cyclist had done this many times and nothing changed, then I can see why they tried to take matter into their own hands.

Al

derath

Noisebeam said it perfectly.

Daily Commute,

I dont know why the bus didn't stay behind the cyclist. Maybe at the time the cyclist was going much slower, to be safe on bad roads. Maybe after the bus passed he put safety second and sped quickly on the sidewalk to catch up. None of us was there to know.

But it is largely irrelevent. The bus DID pass him, at which time the cyclist took inappropriate action and bad things happened.

-D

Daily Commute

derath, I think we're mostly on the same page as to the cyclist's behavior and with the bus driver's behavior after the cyclist pulled in front of him.

Where we disagree, I think, is on whether the bus driver should have moved farther to the left or waited behind the cyclist. I don't see how you could say that the driver's behavior is "largely irrelevent." He's a professional who should be held to professional standards. It's just as important (if not more important) to ask what the driver could have done better.

If the bus company doesn't demand that its drivers maintain high standards, then civil disobedience (and accepting the consequences of that civil disobedience) may be all that's left. Note, I'm not saying this bus company doesn't respond adequately to complaints. I hope others can clear that up.

Edit: I'm responding to ChezJfrey's post here so I can leave the last spots for others. I've enjoyed this thread and I've taken up my share of the 100 posts.

ChezJfrey, I'm glad you've had a good experience. I also called to compliment a driver who clearly loved his job (I was riding the bus then). The driver cheerfully called out each stop with a great big smile--at 5:30 in the morning. You're right, you have to compliment the good if you want to complain about the bad.

chipcom 

Then they are different than downtown Cleveland buses - RTA doesn't mind side-swiping cars, let alone cyclists. The pull out then they feel like it and rarely ever completely change lanes to pass unless they want to be in that lane.

derath

[QUOTE=Daily Commute]Where we disagree, I think, is on whether the bus driver should have moved farther to the left or waited behind the cyclist. I don't see how you could say that the driver's behavior is "largely irrelevent." He's a professional who should be held to professional standards. It's just as important (if not more important) to ask what the driver could have done better.
QUOTE]



We can go around forever speculating whether the bus driver could have moved farther left, or waited behind the cyclist. He didn't. We don't know why. Since he is dead we will never know why. We have no camera footage to explain if he chose to do what he did out of annoyance or need. The only "fact" we have is that he DID pass the cyclist pretty close. The rest is irrelevant in this incident. I hope that makes sense.

I agree however it would be nice if everyone could be more considerate in general. Both to cyclists and drivers. The sad thing is that while we have spent all this time talking about how badly cyclists get treated on the road, it really isn't about cyclists.

Drivers treat other drivers the same way. My job requires a good bit of drive time. I am constantly amazed at how inconsiderate drivers are to everyone else on the road.

Other drivers tend to treat buses and large trucks the same way they treat cyclists. I feel for the mack truck drivers who need to merge their huge rigs while all the cars do what they can to cut them off, etc.

I almost got run over today by a woman going at least 15mph in a PARKING LOT. I made eye contact with her, at which point it was almost like she stepped on the gas.

It is hard to imagine cyclists will ever get proper treatment when drivers cannot even treat their peers (other drivers) with decency.

The guy still shouldn't have cut off the bus... :-)

ChezJfrey

I have.

Portland's TriMet has a website specifying contact information. Over the last several years, I've sent three emails describing blatant (and, in my opinion, severe) transgressions. Two of the scenarios directly involved me, as a cyclist; I was merely a witness (following in an automobile) on one occasion. I have also sent two messages praising bus driver action that I felt was well beyond professional courtesy and alertness -- ya gotta let 'em know the really good ones so they know what type to hire and propagate the entire fleet with superskilled drivers!

In each complaint case, I received a prompt message back stating that TriMet would look into the matter, then the shift supervisor would contact me, which they did. Evidently, one of the driver's preempted my complaint by mentioning the altercation to his supervisor -- I guess he knew he was wrong and 'fessed up. One response also admitted to, "high tension between bus drivers and bicyclists." I do not know whether disciplinary action was taken against any individual driver, but TriMet responded that they would remind the transgressor and the entire shift of drivers that bus drivers need to watch for and cooperate with cyclists. I'm fairly satisfied that they review the situation and handle it as well as can be expected.

Overall, my experience with TriMet has been fairly good. One driver on my commute recently hailed me at a stop light and noted, "You go all the way to Tigard don't you? You make great time!" See? Admiration from a bus driver...they don't hate all of "us," and I don't hate all of "them."

Dogbait

The head of the BTA does not say that the bus company is great. He says:
...."Furthermore, if the driver helped someone who has just assaulted a cyclist leave the scene, instead of calling the police, it’s completely unacceptable.

That said, TriMet has had an open door to hear the needs of the cycling community, and I think they are making a good faith effort to be good partners. The BTA's genesis was back in 1990, and we were advocating for having bike racks on all our buses. TriMet heard that concern and responded." ...

If you want to know what his opinion is or why it is, as you say, "different than every other person (cyclist or motorist) who has commented about the busses there?", you should ask him. What anyone else thinks is purely conjecture.

Just as with any other group of people, bus drivers will have a small percentage of their number who behave in a socially unacceptable or even dangerous fashion. These are the bus drivers who will draw comments on this board and elsewhere. They are not representative of bus drivers as a whole. They merely are paid the most attention. I have had my share of bad experiences with Tri Met drivers as a cyclist, a pedestrian, a motorist and as a passenger. Over the course of 20 years or so, I have made three complaints by phone to the Tri Met office. On all of these occasions, I was told that action would be taken and got a follow up call after the incident made it's way through the disciplinary system.

Dogbait

Daily Commute

Dogbait, ChezJfrey gave the first positive comment I have seen about Tri Met other than from the BTA guy. Post after post and letter after letter said that Tri Met's drivers were generally aggressive toward both cars and cyclists (and especially toward cyclists).

buzzman

I've never driven a city bus full of 40 +/- passengers standing in the aisles who will go flying forward and backwards if I stop suddenly on a slippery wet road so I can't speak for the bus driver.

I can say as an experienced cyclist who has just moved through an intersection, and is not deaf, I can hear that bus accelerating behind me. Especially if it's a route I travel every day and so, more than likely, does that bus driver, so I will make an effort to drop my need to advocate my right as a cyclist to my equal right to that lane and eat a little gravel if I have to and hopefully that driver might one day show me or some other cyclist that same courtesy. The driver of the bus is not responsible for the gravel in the bike lane. Why would I have such a strong need to hold that little but of space to the left of the line under those circumstances? Is this cyclist anti-bike lane on principle or is it really that there's that much debris in the lane?

Does this excuse the actions of the passenger, not at all, did the bus driver deal inappropriately and illegally- absolutely.

But the whole thing could have been avoided had the cyclist been willing to compromise. Save the advocacy for when it counts- at town meetings, in letters to the editor, to your congressional reps but that bus weighs tons and tons, the futility of the cyclist pounding it with his fist should be enough of a metaphor to make the point of how ridiculous he is being. And putting the bike in front of the bus? Should bicyclists be blocking mass transit?- is that the enemy? Does he think he's like that guy with the suitcase in front of the tanks in Tienamen Square? We've got to pick our battles and this one's a loser.

yonderboy

Just for some perspective, this is a picture of the bridge on which the incident occurred. As you can see, the lanes are split, so there's no room for the bus to get around safely without crowding a cyclist already in the lane.

genec

Sounds like the winner. +1

Dogbait

Here is a witness account of the incident from a passenger on the bus. This was posted on BikePortland.org yesterday, January 23, 2006.

WITNESS ACCOUNT

Dogbait

Brian Ratliff

I kind of suspected that was the case, with the bus driver sort of solicitating the passenger reaction. Hopefully, we Portlanders can get a good response out of TriMet. It sounds like they are a pretty good organization as a whole and committed to alternative transportation. I like that the buses are there; one time I was bike commuting and managed to break a non-drive side rear spoke (hard to fix on the side of the road since the drive side spokes have all the tension). I could not fix it on the road, so I hopped on the bus and rode the rest of the way downtown to work.

genec

I thought this account from the BikePortland page was pretty telling of some motorists in general:


So pretty much this driver was determined to hold a bus and whomever until they could get a parking space... pretty darn selfish behaviour if you ask me...

This kind of behaviour leads to NOT sharing the road, NOT merging, and NOT using turn signals to signal intent and let your fellow humans know what you plan on doing... Why does this sort of thing go on?

CB HI

You need to watch the video. At the time the bus driver passed the cyclist, there were 2 lanes available for the bus (prior to the drawbridge portion of the bridge). Traffic was light at that point and the bus driver had plenty of space to safely move completely into the left lane to pass. In fact, looking at the video, it appears that the bus driver moved at least a little into the left lane just to squeeze by the cyclist, so it would have been just as easy to give the cyclist at least 3 feet of space. Several cars passed the cyclist by moving into the left lane before the bus, so why not the bus, after all he is suppose to be the “professional” driver. The reason is that the bus driver wanted to sent a message to the cyclist - “Get the hell off my road.”

ChezJfrey

OK, I will address the various, 'why not just use the bike lane?' questions from my perspective as a Portland cycle commuter.

I remember the BikeForum post (back in 2004) where Randy described this incident shortly after it occured. I was riding in the same conditions and I had made the same choice Randy did. In fact, for days, I rode my entire 13 mile commute outside the bike lane -- in the lanes of traffic (although I typically use a larger portion of the right lane than Randy was in the video). I chose to do this for precisely the same reason Randy stated -- the bike lane was virtually unusable.

During the week preceding Randy's incident, Portland had just endured days of snow and ice and the roads had been frequently sanded and re-sanded. As the roads thawed and traffic patterns resumed, the sand was pushed into the bike lanes. Not just a thin layer, but mounds and mounds of the stuff. I don't care how wide your bike tires are, if you plow your bike into 3 inch piles of gravel, you likely can't steer or brake effectively. It would also be very unwise to suddenly veer from smooth pavement, at speed, into a bank of gravel while a bus is passing you -- you stand a good chance of hitting the pavement and could possibly end up under the bus' wheels.

The wise move would be to hold your line rather than risk crashing in the gravel and falling under a vehicle -- this exact scenario has killed dooring victims.

Of course, this riding method can obviously incite anger in some dumbass, clueless cowards. During this same week, a driver continually edged his car closer and closer to me from behind. I figured that since I was actually moving the speed of traffic and was closely following another vehicle directly in front of me, that perhaps the driver was just an obnoxious tailgater. Unfortunately, I was wrong. The driver then just pulled into the lane left of me, then veered into me and pushed me with his car into the bike lane. I reported the incident to the police, who said, "We'll TALK to the driver because that borders on assault." Borders? Whatever. Oregon license plate, O PASTA = cowardly little b*tch.

noisebeam

Once can see the mound filling the right half of the BL in the video when the bus is passing. I didn't know what it was, but that makes sense now.

Al