Eriol

Ok, I was supposed to take a VC class last week but the date was moved to August. I'm very disappointed b/c I do have a few questions.

1) When stopped at a red light with lots of traffic, 2 lanes but the lanes are so narrow you must take the full lane(you can barely fit a car on one lane). When the light turns green do you pull off the road and let all the cars past or do you continue through and let them fight to move to the left lane. Or do you pull over after you pass the light.

2) I travel a road, one lane each way, that the speed limit is 15Mph. I can easily travel at that speed and actually usually break the limit by a little. So, I pretend as if Im in a car and take the entire lane b/c I figure no one should pass me b/c if they do they are breaking the law. However, at least twice a week I get yelled at and people dangerously drive into the oncoming lane to pass me, I know they wouldnt do this if I was a car traveling at the same speed. Am I in the wrong?

thanks for your help, I'm sure I'll have more quesitons later

Bekologist

i think #1 is very situational. are these specifically narrow only lanes, no parking strip, no shoulder, no etc? is it a 25 mph roadway, or a 50 mph roadway? How congested? rush hour, or always stop and go? is the sun in the drivers' eyes behind you?

I don't think there's a cut and dried 'correct' anwser - Except "your safety first, expedient traffic flow for everyone else second."

my advice is more general, but based on urban/ suburban 4 lane 35mph roadways.

a lot of it depends on your speed, the traffic, the lane conditions past the intersection, the ease of you yielding to maximise everyone's expedient traffic flow, [i.e. 'don't be a azz'] and at the same time ensure your safety.

I like to let big trucks by, those guys drive for a living. private autos, a little less so. if an intersection is wide, and there is not a lot of traffic, sometimes it makes everyones day if you let cars by, before getting up to speed.

if you are traffic hopping off the stops and beating the cars thru the intersection, a half block or better yet to the next light, then no, don't yield just because. However, i'm very fast off the stops, and i still sometimes yield a lane to faster traffic off a stop light if it just makes everyone feel good. most often not.

pedal slowly off the stop, and ease right, fi you want to let the cars past you. I sometimes do it for buses and semis if nothing else is conditional. its pointless if you are beating them to the next light. if you are pacelining the traffic flow, you can sometimes let a few cars by, before you in turn need to move into the main traffic flow so you don't overtake on the right.

a LOT of it is conditional and unique in time spatial analysis on the part of the rider.

maintain your safety first. yielding right of way safely to overtaking traffic is something every road cyclist needs to learn to do.

second situation, that's an example of the typical angry, manevolent driver. they are EVERYWHERE. learn appropriate hand signals to inform these drivers of your displeasure.

AndrewP

Bicycle lane marking in the UK lets the bikes move past the cars on the inside, but gives the bikes the full lane in front of the cars at the traffic light.

Helmet Head

You might do any of the above depending on the situation. There are several factors to consider.

1. How well you are or are not keeping up with the vehicle in front of you. Many times you can be fast off the line and keep up. In that case, probably no need to pull over.
2. The behavior of the driver behind you. Is he indicating a desire to pass by honking, flashing his lights, or tailgating? Or is he hanging back, apparently fine with letting you proceed at your normal speed?
3. Whether there is room to pull over once you're in the intersection. If there is room, once you've established your presence and intent, and are obviously moving straight through, and there is someone behind you who wants to pass, there is probably no reason not to move over (of course, glance over your right shoulder before moving right to make sure it's clear).
4. Width of the lane on the other side of the intersection combined with length of intersection. If you're going from narrow to narrow (narrow = too narrow to be safely shared) through a short intersection, there is probably not enough space/time to pull over, so just hold the lane. On my commute I go from narrow to narrow across a big intersection, and the grade is uphill (so I'm extra slow), so I typically move right (in front of the right turning traffic) after I'm in the intersection (after I'm past the section where I would be in the path of right turners) to let a few vehicles go by, then I merge back in and proceed in the center of the narrow lane on the other side. But you have to be comfortable with your ability to negotiate your way back in to pull this one off, otherwise, just hold the lane just like in the short intersection situation.
   
   If you're going from narrow to wide, then I would just pull aside as soon as you're losing ground on the vehicle in front of you.

First, please ignore Bekologist's suggestion to use "appropriate hand signals" - no need to incite road rage, especially when you're slow and cageless!

On a 2 lane road, even if you're traveling at or above the speed limit, if someone behind you communicates their desire to pass, you have an obligation to facilitate their passing you, if it is safe and reasonable to do so. Whether they would be breaking the speeding law or would not do so if you were operating a different type of vehicle is irrelevant. All that is relevant is that they communicated a desire to pass (say by flashing their lights or honking, or arguably, by tailgating), and it's safe and reasonable for you to pull over. This is true for all vehicle drivers. Cyclists have no special obligation or waiver regarding this rule. However, if it is not safe or unreasonable for you to move further to the right, then issuing the slow/stop signal with your left arm would be appropriate.

This particular rule of the road is not only based on common sense and courtesy, but is manifested in two sections of the CA vehicle code, as follows (my emphasis).


Slow-Moving Vehicles

21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation of subdivision (a) of this section.
...

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21654.htm



Yielding for Passing

21753. Except when passing on the right is permitted, the driver of an overtaken vehicle shall safely move to the right-hand side of the highway in favor of the overtaking vehicle after an audible signal or a momentary flash of headlights by the overtaking vehicle, and shall not increase the speed of his or her vehicle until completely passed by the overtaking vehicle. This section does not require the driver of an overtaken vehicle to drive on the shoulder of the highway in order to allow the overtaking vehicle to pass.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21753.htm

Good questions. Hope this helps.

Roody

My answer is much simpler than those of bekologist and Helmet Head. Most of the streets in my city are like this, including the one I live on, so I have lots of experience.

You are talking about a narrow outer lane (NOL) that does not have right-turn-only lanes at the intersections. In this case you OWN the NOL. Just stay in the center if it at all times, and line up with the traffic at the lights. When the light turns green, just stay in the center of the lane. don't worry about the cagers. They will merge into the inner (left) lane to pass you safely. Also, they will almost NEVER line up behind you at the traffic signals, unless they are turning right. They will get into the inner lane so they can get through the intersection quicker. If they do want to turn right, pull farther ahead and over to the left so they can turn on red.

the cagers will almost never get mad at you, and they will almost never buzz you or even honk at you. At least that's my experience.

Own the lane. If they get mad, f*** 'em. If they pass you dangerously, oh well. It probably isn't really as dangerous as it looks to you, or they wouldn't be doing it. They're not suicidal. Are they breaking the law to pass you? Maybe, but that's betwen them and the cops.

Helmet Head

Hmm. I interpreted this as 2 lanes total, not 2 lanes in each direction like Roody did. If it's 2 narrow lanes in each direction, then, yeah, I'm with what Roody said.

noisebeam

As an exception to the center bias for a NOL: If you are in an intersectionless stretch and a faster vehicle is behind you and aware of you, you can move right (about right tire track or 2-3' from curb) to make it easier for them to pass. By doing this you show you are aware of them behind you and will most often get a respectful safe pass and fewer agressive passes that you get if you stay in the center continuously.
But get back to center if there is no vehicle directly behind you, the best benefit of this is making faster vehicles approaching in your lane aware early that they will need to merge into adjacent lane to pass and the earlier they realize this the easier it will be for them to merge smoothly and the more likely they will not end up on your tail waiting to make a more difficult passl

Al

Roody

I assumed that because in question 1) he said "2 lanes," but in question 2) he said "one lane each way."

billh

Very good questions. I can comment on situation #1. I have ridden a similar street during rush hour for the past 6 years where the traffic backs up perhaps 20-30 cars deep both lanes, too narrow to share side by side. In the early years I would go to the head of the line and stop just behind and to the right of the lead car then merge into the lane behind them after the light turned green, taking the lane. As you can imagine, this was not popular with other traffic. After some years and several nasty interactions, the sidewalk began to beckon. Deserted, no peds. Wide sight lines. Not many drives. So I began taking the sidewalk until the column of cars passed, then merged back onto the street. The only downside is when the light is green on approach, I have to be very, very, VERY careful about right turning cars. However, most go straight. So it is a tradeoff.

noisebeam

I assumed two lanes each way because of this statement "...and let them fight to move to the left lane," moving to left lane implies a same direction left lane to me.

Al

Helmet Head

Yeah, situation 1 is two lanes in his direction.

Eriol

sorry for the confusion, situation 1 is two lanes each way and situation 2 is 1 lane each way.

I appreciate everyones advice, I was unaware that if someone wants to pass you have to facilitate it even if you are traveling at the speed limit.

The reason I asked about situation one is during rush hour the street is packed, both lanes, so it is very hard for someone to move to the left lane to pass you. Also, once you start pedeling there is already 20-30 cars behind you its that busy. Unfortunatly, going in the direction im going in that is actually the best road that I found. The first time I tried letting cars pass me when the light turned green, but it turned red before I had a chance to get back in, there was never an opening. Would this be a good time for sidewalk riding? (I know its probably blasphemous to even suggest it =) )

Helmet Head

This would be a good time to practice negotiation. That is, instead of waiting for "a chance to get back in", create one.

What exactly did you do to let cars go by when the light turned green? That is, did you move aside and stop, or were you still moving? Were you past the intersection when you moved aside, before the intersection, or in the intersection?

noisebeam

Understood, but I would argue that it is not reasonable when traveling at 15mph to pull over to the right in a 'zero tollerance' 15mph zone to let faster than limit vehicles to pass. This compromises ones visibility which is dangerous at near same speed traffic.
I have direct experience with this. I used to ride thru a 15mph zone every morning. I would always slow from my 22mph+ speed to below 17mph or so and take lane, mostly I would be slowed by cars ahead of me, but everyonce in a while I got some idiot tailgaiting and swerving showing displeasure at a cyclist being a safe and responsible driver when there were lots of kids around. I could have moved to right and let them speed up and get behind car ahead. But I didn't as I didn't want to get stuck off to the side by following cars.
Keep in mind in this area there was always two crossing guards and about once per wk a motorcycle officer. I am quite sure I saved a few drivers from speeding tickets (and myself by staying close to 15)

Al

billh

It all depends on the situation. In my situation, sidewalk riding works perfectly because after the 30 cars pass, the street is absolutely empty for a good 30 seconds because the light has changed and the next column is waiting back at the light. I merge back onto the street and catch the "groupetto" at the next stop, a sign, where they are all turning left to get on the highway. I go straight. No problemo. What is the traffic like after you go through the intersection? What's up ahead? What is the sidewalk like? These are all considerations.

chipcom 

There lies the beauty of a bike - you are not limited to the roadway only. The point of the exercise is to get from point A to point B safely, not to adhere to some zealot's dogma in an effort to follow the herd or prove a point.

sbhikes

You know, chipcom has a point. I have been using the sidewalk and other little sneaky shortcuts a bit more lately just because there seems to be something in the air. Too many tourists in town who don't know how to deal with cyclists? Too much testosterone in the springtime air? Everybody is sick of the fog? (I swear it's been foggy every day for about a year and I'm going nuts I'm going to move to Seattle or Portland where they weather is better.)

That's the nice thing about bikes. Do the VC gig when you can, but when it's just too much hassle, there can sometimes be another way to deal with it. Not always, but sometimes. Basically, when the lanes are narrow you own them and give up your space when you see fit. For some of us that is more often. For others of us it's less often. I think if you look people in the eye, use signals, look behind you, let them know you are aware of what's going on, that you're not trying to be an ******* etc, things usually work out ok.

Helmet Head

+1

[tt]"However, the cyclist has two legal advantages over the motorist. The cyclist can become a pedestrian and follow pedestrian rules, and in many locations can ride on the sidewalk."[/tt]
-John Forester, Effective Cycling, 6th ed., p. 280

Bekologist

mr head has his hand signals, and many other bicyclists use others.


good luck with the cagers. roodys advice to 'don't worry about the cagers' is quite blind.

remember, learning to yield right of way safely is something every road cyclist should learn.

Regardless of what strict legal adherants think traffic codes grant bicyclists, The "rules of the road" are not written down anywhere, contained in any one single book, and do not exist on a theoretical coffee table in front of a pontificants' armchair. They are dynamic, organic and unique in time to every bicycling situation and every bicyclist.

for example, people that listen to anticyclist invective on talk radio have a different set of 'rules of the road' for bicyclists. independant of the law, the roads in America operate more like the wild west than the swiss postal service.

correspondingly, people that spend a lot of time under the mistaken assumption american road cycling is all about feeling good vibes between cars and cyclists have a different set of 'rules of the road.'

Sometimes these differing interpretations of the 'rules of the road' mean divergent paths.

Helmet Head

Beck, you write like you've been reading posts on some other forum, and then responding to them here.


Only if you take an extreme and unwarranted out-of-context interpretation of "worry", which perhaps Roody intended, but only in your fantasy forum.


Over on that other fantastic forum to which you are responding apparently someone wrote something to the contrary, because certainly no one did that in this real-world forum.


Sure, Beck, there are no rules. Each driver and cyclist just makes 'em up as they go along. I'm glad I don't have to ride, drive or walk in your fantasy world.

I'm not saying everyone follows the rules of the road (certainly not!). But there's a huge difference between noting that everyone breaks a rule here or there and implying "there are no rules, so feel free to make them up as you go along", which appears to me to be the main point of Beck's post.

Bekologist

whatever, mr. HEAD. you have your wacky theories, and I have mine. I imply nothing of what your last statement indicates.

I state to the original poster,

"Learning to yield safely is something every road cyclist needs to learn to do." Something mr head is in agreement with, so why the discredit of my post? Are you just overly argumentitive, mr HEAD?

You agree with my statement, right? At least, i think thats what you just said in your last post.

I also state not worring about the cars is daft and a blindsight advice. I think mr HEAD and i are in agreement on this as well; I state there are many unique in time variables where yielding is a consideration, and mr. HEAD also indicates many situations where he yields similarily. Angry drivers flashing lights impatiently at you at the stop, for example.

So, mr. HEAD and I both agree there are situations off a signalled stop where yielding ROW is warranted. As opposed to mr. Roodys' myopic advice the cars behind you require no consideration.

And, that operators of motor vehicles have differing views of what the "rules of the road" are compared to what an bicyclist thinks are the rules, and these interpretations are often different in america.

Also, that angry drivers, like the ones encountered by the original poster, are prolifigate. they are everywhere. I get harassed daily riding around a major metropolitian american city, an area with a falsefront feel good ethos and a real angry populace.

mr HEAD, if you agree with me that yielding right of way safely IS something road cyclists need to learn to do, why doth protest so much?

billh

. . . unless you believe that one survey that recommended NOT to look aggressive drivers in the eye because that enrages them more! I dunno, they interpret it as some sort of challenge?

chipcom 

I either give em the old bug eyes or the goo-goo eyes....gets em every time!

Roody

I certainly agree that learning to yield the ROW is important. So is learning when not to yield it.

In this case, you not only should not yield, you cannot yield. The OP indicated that he was riding in a NOL that could not physically be shared with a motor vehicle. You cannot yield in such a situation unless you depart the roadway. I mean, it is impossible to give away (yield) something that you do not possess (in this case, extra space in the lane). Since you can't do anything about the situation in terms of yielding, "don't worry about the cagers."

In your world, there are no rules, and cagers deliberately try to run you down every day. In my world there are traffic rules, and so far cagers have not deliberately mowed me down. Other participants can decide which world more clearly matches their own world.

I guess my post was a little too abstract for the average caveman to understand. If you were able to read in context, you might grasp what I was saying, and also what the OP was saying. Here, I'll give you a chance to try it again:

Bekologist

Actually, rood, both mr. HEAD and myself indicated methods how to yield ROW in an intersection.

Cars stack up behind me at most every traffic signal, rood must ride in that perfect world of cars never getting impatient behind bicyclists at stops and lights- Just last night, on a four lane roadway in Seattle, i had a Range Rover pass agressively and the driver flipped me the bird because i was faster off the light by two ful blocks! They got so worked up over a bicyclist riding in the lane, faster then them by two city blocks, to threaten me with a close pass and the bird.

Roody, you are right though, and i agree with you...."know how to hold 'em, know when to bold 'em, and know when to yield", i think the song goes?