N_C

I think it is legal in lost places in the U.S. Just not recommended, & sometimes not safe, especially when passing a large semi truck, whether on a bike or in a motor vehicle.

sgtsmile

Often, I tend to agree. And I also think there is wholesale hatred towards car drivers, by other car drivers.

Remember: there are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.

It does not matter what statistics say regarding following the rules or not vs driver behaviour, what matters is your own personal experience. The best evidence for the support of an argument can be anicdotal, and in this particular case, I think it is likely to be. Several people have pointed out that following the rules is an obligation of the cyclist since we are vehicles sharing a road space with other vehicles. I would argue that we should follow the rules simply because it makes us more predictable, and that makes us safer.

It is also important to be courteous and respectful of other road users. Clear, concise communication with other road users is important, as is a smile. Little things like taking the lane in a right turn/straight through lane and hugging the left so cars can go by and turn on the read make us safer, and are at the same time courtious to other road users (heck, Ido that in my car if the lane is wide enough and I am going straight...)

webist

I don't think there is any statistical proof. I do know that I encounter hundreds of motorists on my daily 20-miler with no incidents. I am predictable, polite and considerate. I do my best to signal my intentions. Even when running through a stop sign, I slow and look so as to signal my recognition of the sign's existence and my responsibility to other drivers. Conversely, I do know what behaviors will illicit negative reactions from drivers or dramatically increase danger for me or others. These I avoid.

I-Like-To-Bike

I'm sure you can't; for good reason.

rando

No.

Keith99

I somewhat agree. For most it is at least more important that we did not bother them (but to be fair isn't this true of most people in most situations?).

BUT by following the law at last they can't say 'That @sshole biker ran a stopsign and I had to slam on my brakes to keep from hitting him'. Any driver who reads this forum would likely add 'and of course if I did hit him his @sshole buddies would say it was my fault'.

chipcom 

You hit it on the head, Diane. Following the rules doesn't earn respect, but blatently not following them sure breeds disrespect, annoyance and sometimes downright hatred - to all of us, not just the idiots.

Keith99

It just dawned on me. What kind of 'proof' do you want? Is a drivers word good enough? For that matter is it really proof you are looking for? Or is it really some level of quantification? If you don't believe that ther are SOME drivers out htere whose attitude toward cyclists is influenced by how well cyclists follow the rules of the road then I think you are an idiot. BUT just how large is that 'some'? If one out of a million then it might as well be that drivers are not influenced.

Thinking more about it perhaps the idea should be expanded, again not 'proof' but numbers. What are the things that cyclists do that piss off drivers? And some kind of number for each. I'd be willing to bet that not all rules of the raod are as bothersome as others. I'm also pretty sure some things that are legal piss off drivers (and sometimes rightfully so).

A good example would be filtering. My opinoin is that most drivers do not care at all if we filter, as long as we are doing it at a reasonable speed with reasonable clearance and that when the light turns we are not holding them up. On the other side if we filter and then end up in front of them, holding them up they will get upset and rightfully so. In that case we are cutting in line, something even a child knows is basically wrong.

chipcom 

There is wholesale hatred for car drivers...from other drivers! As a driver myself I can safely say that I hate other motorists in general much more than the occassional annoying cyclist. To add to TJs statement - motorists hate anyone who gets in their way - ESPECIALLY other motorists.

chipcom 

I concur, to a point. Drivers do notice when people, on a bike or otherwise, blatently break the law or put themselves in harms way for no good reason. The offender may not get in their way or impede them at all.

For example, if you are in your car waiting at a light and some idiot cyclist runs the light and narrowly avoids getting creamed, I maintain that:

1. you notice
2. you draw an opinion about the cyclist that is less than favorable (like my diplomatic term for 'you think he's an idjit')

Granted, you or I won't try to associate the actions of one idjit to all cyclists, but a non cyclist might, especially when the only times they ever notice a cyclist is when the cyclist is doing something stupid.

TRaffic Jammer

I'll give you that point but what if he runs a light and doesn't narrowly anything, just goes though like poop through a goose, after making sure it's safe? No honking, no brakes, no harm no foul. I will only run a 'safe' red, and I won't carve the green traffic (slowly leading into the intersection so i can slip right behind the green light driver) as this freaks them out and can cause them to brake needlessly when you really want them to just keep going. I don't get paid by the drop anymore so some riding characteristics have changed. Now in an alleycat situation, all bets are off

chipcom 

If it's a 'safe' red, there ain't no cars around to see me!

TRaffic Jammer

Cept the ones behind me watchin' me go, and the oncoming on the other side of the intersection. They sometimes catch up a few blocks later ...'Hey that light was red...' I won't be nasty to them because, by the letter of the law they are indeed right. I see it the same as Jaywalking, yes it's illegal, but there are so many more important things to worry about on my ride. Just stayin' in front, trying to keep my momentum going.

cudak888 

It wouldn't make a stick of difference.

It is not the cyclists as much as the motorist - motorists will take their personal anger out on whoever is convenient at the time, whether it be a cyclist, a pedestrian, or for that matter, another motorist.

Riding properly or riding mildly improperly (running stops, etc.) is not going to change anything. If you're there, they'll use you as their punching bag for that moment - whether you're on your two wheeled steed, in your own "cage," or in a Sherman tank for that matter.

Of course, if you ride recklessly (dart across three lanes of 60 MPH traffic, for instance), it is not going to help matters, but I don't believe we're discussing the extreme here.

Take care,

-Kurt

chipcom 

Around here, that driver who catches up might just shoot you rather than scold you!
I'm just a wimp in my old age I guess. But I'm a LIVE WIMP!!!

The Human Car

I’ll add my 2 cents to this thread because I have very strong objections to any argument that cyclists are more lawless then their motorized counterparts on the road. While there is a difference in the observed behavior if you track the “rational” you will find a one to one correspondence:

Motorist in defending going over the speed limit:
“Everyone is doing it”
“If I do obey this law I get harassed by other cars on the road.”
“What Harm is it if I can do it without hitting anything?”
Cyclist running red lights:
“Ditto”

Motorists defending not stopping at the legally defied location at an intersection (particularly if about to make a right turn):
“As long as I can stop before I hit something, it is ok.”
“Generally the coast is clear so why should I have to significantly reduce my momentum?”
Cyclist not putting their foot down at stops:
“Ditto”

Motorists defending crowding a merge lane:
“What’s the problem with that if there is space?”
Cyclist filtering:
“Ditto”

The problem is for all behavior I mentioned is for the most part socially acceptable for motor vehicles but not for cyclists. Yet cars kill a lot of people by doing the first two items and cyclists are just limited to killing themselves yet society seems to be outraged over cyclist’s behavior and not the motorists.

The behavior is wrong and the rational is wrong, when we can correct the thinking behind the rational across the board, then we can make some progress until then it’s; delays are bad so cyclists must also be bad.

genec

Cyclists are more lawless... but there are fewer of us.

By sheer volume alone however motorists break more laws... and have a greater potential for damage... yet the caviler attitude typically displayed by motorists that simply do just enough to meet the basic requirements to drive is the heart of why 45,000 motorists die each year.

randya

This is because western society, especially in the US and down under, but to a large degree in Europe as well, is largely made up of people who self-identify as motorists.

genec

Too bad we don't all self-identify as Human.

donnamb 

I came to the same conclusion, also anecdotally, on this ride home: https://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.p...ostcount=14423

MarkS

++100. It would solve a lot of other problems too

KnhoJ

First off, I'd say we need a control group. Get individuals to drive a car in a completely law abiding manner as well as cyclists, and compare which group gets the most respect for abiding by the speed limit: Coming to a full and complete stop long enough to verify safe conditions at stop signs, signalling well in advance of lane changes, and so forth.

Anyway, I don't think it's the vehicle that motivates the anger, but the universally accessible benefits to bending the rules. For example, occupying a lane at or below the posted speed limit may "steal" a benefit from another road user.

Bekologist

here's some interesting anecdote from the last two nights commuting home in the dark.

well lit, on a downhill i usually take in pole position, going 30+ down a 4- lane with a couple of stoplights mid hill about a half mile down.

last two nights, as cars caught up to me at the light a half mile from where I smoked' them off the green, they ran the RED light.

it as if, in catching up to me, they had something to prove, and ran a dangerous RED. or %150 percent distracted.

i think cars could care less what riders do, but an awful lot of drivers get their panties all in a bunch when they see a bicyclist Doing WHATEVER out there.

just seeing a bicyclist, violating the supposed entitlement of the roadways soley to cars, is enough to set some drivers off, and this wholesale animosity towards a bicyclist 'impeding' on the roads is the paradigm that needs changing in america.

genec

I do exactly that when I drive... in fact I drive below the speed limit. Not one single motorist has honked or yelled at me when I drive. They do fly past me the the first opportunity they get (which tells me that a LOT of drivers don't drive the speed limit), but they don't do it closely, they don't yell "get on the sidewalk" or anything of that nature, and they don't honk. I drive with my window down... So I am quite available to hear this sort of thing. Go figure.

CommuterRun

Um, I think you might be mistaken, Tom.

https://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...n%2027#0322.27
However, you are correct that a DUI can be issued to a bicycle rider (a bicycle being defined by the state as a vehicle). However, the points cannot go against the persons DL (a DL not being required to operate a bicycle).

I believe there's also something about an infraction on a bicycle cannot go against a persons car insurance.