sbhikes

Sheesh. Don't you guys all know by now that there's a Black Helicopter hidden in a hangar out in the desert where they store all these manuals for bike lanes? To Serve Bicyclists (after they die in a crash, baste liberally with butter and roast them on a spit). Bike Lanes: the Final Solution (all about segretating and cleansing them from our civilized car culture). And Bike Lane Psy-Ops, HH's favorite. He's got a copy of that one under his pillow.

Personally, I have to drive my car in the door zone more often than I ever see a bike lane in the door zone.

noisebeam

What makes Campell so bad? How is it different than busy arterials in a larger city to your north? I've driven around Tucson a lot, rush hour included.
The main concern I'd have about a BL is all the side streets and driveways going into Campell and also the many places a cyclist will want to turn left - are they going to widen the road to install RTOLs for every one of these intersections. Putting a BL in makes that negotiation across the lanes significantly harder. It is much easier to get motorist response if one is already using a primary lane.
Yes, calm traffic, plant trees in the median and along the sidewalks, narrow the inner lanes and widen the out one, but don't paint a BL stripe. Post the SL at 35mph - after all it will be a shopping center area with increase in pedestrians.
Also avoid promoting the alternate route you mention as for 'cyclists' - that will create the perception they should not be on Campell.
Al

AndrewP

The bike lanes I see around here are 2 way on one side of the street, with no parking for 6 months of the year. For the other 6 months they are parking lanes. Parking is allowed on the other side of the street all year. No door zone problem, but I never ride in the bike lanes going on the wrong side of the road.

sggoodri

Many road widths won't accommodate the addition of proper width bike lanes plus proper width travel lanes outside the door zone.

The problem I see is that when local governments and the more vocal bike lane advocates have a choice between doing wrong or not doing it at all (e.g. leaving an unsegregated wide lane), they prefer to do the striped facility wrong.

It all ultimately devolves into a "stripes for the sake of stripes" policy. Safety isn't the motivation behind those who insist on adding these stripes where they don't belong.

DCCommuter

Bingo. That's what I see around here. There seems to be a belief that painting stripes somehow makes the road wider. Bike lanes are painted on roads that weren't wide enough to share to begin with. The people striping know how much space a car needs, but have no clue what a bike needs, so they give the cars what they need and give the rest to bikes.

I live on a residential street that is two-way, even though it's not wide enough for two cars to pass at the same time when cars are parked on the sides, which is the norm. There is no yellow dividing line on my street. Why? Because the traffic engineers figure out that painting a line doesn't make the road any wider, and the presence of the line communicates the wrong message about how to use the roadway. For some reason they haven't figured out the same thing with bike lanes.

sggoodri

SingingSabre later clarifies that the addition of bike lanes to this road will be provided by removing one ordinary travel lane in each direction.

This type of road modification is known as a four-to-two or four-to-three lane conversion. It is especially popular on roads with no center turn lane, where turning traffic delays drivers in the inside lanes and increases turbulence, rear-ending collisions (car-car), and sideswipes (car-car). These conversions can also be performed to create a wide landscaped center median, making the road more attractive, especially to pedestrians.

The reduction in turbulence in 4-lane to 2/3 lane conversions has some benefits for cyclists in addition to those for motorists. Left turns become easier, with better protection. If the pavement post-conversion is wide enough, it also allows car and truck drivers to pass cyclists without merging with adjacent traffic and thus reduces stress between cyclists and motorists.

I strongly support 4-2/3 lane conversions as an improvement to cycling comfort and safety.

However, all of this is irrelevant to whether or not a bike lane stripe should be added. Once adequate pavement width is provided for drivers to pass without changing lanes, the vast majority of passing-related safety and comfort issues are resolved. WOLs work perfectly well in these locations, and are in fact superior in my opinion, as I have cycled many 2-lane roads with 16-18' lanes divided by raised center medians. Some of these roads later had bike lane stripes added, which then accumulated extra debris, causing me to ride farther left, which caused drivers to have more difficulty overtaking me between me and the median.

sbhikes

Yes they will if you remove the parking.

LittleBigMan

My favorite bike lane was the one that led you through a door zone, over a huge drain grate and into a giant vat of acid.

sggoodri

Political reality makes this extremely unlikely in most places where on-street parking is actively used.

In Cary, NC where I live, the city recently ADDED on-street parking to a road that previously had striped bike lanes near the curb. The bike lanes were moved and restriped from the curbside out to what is now the door zone in order to create the parking lane.

On another Cary street, the city started ticketing motorists for parking in a newly striped bike lane. Motorists complained enough that the city removed the bike lane. On still another street, Cary proposed to mark a double-yellow centerline and possibly add other signage in order to make it unlawful to park on a narrow road. Neighbors complained and the plan was abandoned.

In Raleigh, a proposal to remove a short section of on-street parking on a major thoroughfare in order to make space for striped bike lanes or wide outside lanes was abandoned due to neighborhood opposition. The city is also considering removing bike lanes from sections of Ridge Road in order to provide on-street parking near a school. This is the oldest section of striped bike lane in Raleigh, and one of only three such roads in the city that I know of.

This is why many or most plans to retrofit urban streets with bike lanes end up with door-zone bike lanes. The planners and engineers understand and care more about motorists' complaints over removal of parking than they do cyclists' complaints of door zone problems.

I-Like-To-Bike

Yeah. I heard about that one too; think it was a joint project of General Motors and Halliburton for the "point" of putting their arch enemies, the evil doing dim bulb cyclists in their proper place.

Further I heard local environmental groups were seen singing Kumbaya with these death dealing bike lane building conspirers for reasons known only to Psycho Mind Reading Wizards,

joejack951

Did you read the story about the driver who was killed when a door was flung open in front of his car?

sbhikes

It's only unlikely if you let it be. We removed some on-street parking just recently. You just have to have the political will. Clearly you guys want more and more of the same.

Helmet Head

Careful what you wish for.

On my commute a 4 lane road with onstreet parking was recently converted to 6 lanes + bike lanes. First, the speed of motor traffic has gone up noticably. Normally, I wouldn't care, except that I need to merge across this traffic to make a left turn (the alternative, using ped rules, requires waiting for two long DONT WALK signals).

Before, because of the onstreet parking, prior to getting to the intersection along the fairly steep uphill grade (steep enough for me to hit 40+ mph going the other way in the morning), I was controlling the rightmost lane, and had only one more lane to merge across to get to the left turn lanes. Plus, like I said, traffic would be moving slower than it is now.

Now, I'm climbing in the bike lane because of the 50+ mph traffic in the main traffic lanes, when I need to start thinking about merging. There are three lanes between me and my destination left turn lane.

Believe me, removing onstreet parking and replacing it with a bike lane and an extra traffic lane (there was some physical widening too) made this situation much worse for bicycling.

In The Complete Book of Bicycling, Eugene Sloan recommends avoiding riding on streets without onstreet parking. Why? Because traffic tends to move slower on streets with onstreet parking than those without. Bike lanes also enable even higher speeds. The effect of increased motoring speeds that results from removing onstreet parking and adding bike lanes is not positive for bicycling.

I-Like-To-Bike

And available off street parking.

Not every city is a Sun Belt city built up in the middle of a desert after the advent of the automobile age. Or the car ownership and travel mode of the public virtually mandated a garage or added parking for every home and business establisment.

sggoodri

Our city is trying to revitalize and expand commercial development in our downtown, the only area with any significant combination of motor traffic and on-street parking. The business owners located in older, pre-automobile storefronts depend on convenient on-street parking in front of their shops in order to stay in business. Making patrons walk a few blocks will just send them out to the strip malls where parking is easier. Building off-street parking in parking decks, the only viable solution without reducing downtown density, will cost on the order $10,000 per parking space.

There have been no overtaking-type car-bike collisions reported on these downtown streets with on-street parking. The annoyance to motorists delayed by cyclists plus the annoyance to cyclists by motorists honking is less than the annoyance to motorists who face losing the parking. And cyclist advocates here don't want to needlessly damage the commercial viability of downtown. Therefore, the parking will stay.

SingingSabre 

I did no, but thanks for supporting me.

What I did say is that the planning board is looking at narrowing the current lanes, not reducing the amount of lanes.

There isn't enough space on Campbell to put in a median and/or RTOL's.

As to making left turns, Campbell has an interesting rhythm to it. There are a few breaks in traffic, just enough to make it possible to turn left. There is also the option of crossing it with a perpendicular light (my preferred option with this road).

The speed limit is either 30 or 35, IIRC, but people gnereally go 40+ when given the opportunity. Narrowing the lanes would likely slow traffic down a degree.

How is this road different than a busy arterial? It's not, it is a busy arterial. The problem is that it's currently a pooly designed busy arterial. Restriping it should help the pace and safety of this road.

noisebeam

Without RTOLs the BL is going to put more cyclist in right hook danger vs. current NOL design.
A 40mph actual arterial is a slow arterial actually, makes it seem even more comfortable for cycling.
Instead of looking for breaks in traffic to merge left, have you tried negotiating a space?

Anyway, what specifically makes it poorly designed arterial?

Al

sbhikes

How lucky do you ever get to get the parking spot right in front of the store you want to go to? I never do. Build a parking garage.

Brian Ratliff

Interesting idea... First, most bicycling advocates in places where cycling advocacy is effective are supportive of bike lanes and are constantly trying to make bike lanes, as well as other, more forward looking cycling accomodations, more effective. Second, bike lanes, like all other road markings, evolve over time. They are quite good in places now. What else do you want?

As far your language goes, there is no such thing as a "bike lane advocate." It would imply that there were, in existence, a single interest group to diametrically oppose the Vehicular Cycling Advocates. There is not. There are only "VC advocates" and "Bicycling advocates." That most bicycling advocates advocate for bike lanes is simply that the "VC message" has not shown to be practical to those cyclists who are not in the 5% crowd who are "fearless cyclists." Most cyclists have been shown to enjoy bicycle accomodations in places where the accomodation is to help the cyclist, such as in Portland, OR.

As for the bike lanes in door zones... There are many reasons those might come about, outdated standards, political points, convenience, etc. I urge you all, if you have a "door zone bike lane," you should take it up with your cycling advocacy group to get them to either 1) restripe the street, moving the bike lane further out, 2) get ride of on street parking, or 3) remove the bike lane, perhaps placing sharrows instead. I would suggest you advocate in that order as well.

sbhikes

Or else it simply means that most bicycling advocates are deluded into a false sense of security and have internalized their irrelevance to such a degree that they willingly accept and ask for more segregated facilities as if they were Stockholm syndrome sufferers. You know, because we are stupid, ignorant, ascared, and don't know any better.

Brian Ratliff

I suppose. Aw well. I've said my part.

LittleBigMan

I'm not sure it was General Motors. I had a brand new Plymouth that leaked water on my clutch foot every time it rained.

sggoodri

Sorry, I misunderstood. I think I read "some" instead of "from" when you wrote: "They aren't going to add any width to the road, just take away from traffic lanes"

Many cities, including Cary, NC, restripe existing roads to create wide outside lanes. For example, when Maynard Road was being resurfaced between East Chatham Street and Harrison Ave near my house, I contacted the DOT to make sure the restriping was done according to Cary's Bicycle Plan. They shifted the lane stripes to turn two 12' lanes into an 11' inside lane and a 13' outside lane. The outside lane is next to an 18" or so gutter pan, making it wide enough to share, better than the previous 12' lane.

The DOT won't restripe a 45 mph major arterial with lanes any narrower than 11', and since the raised center median and outside curb can't be moved without major expense, a 13' lane is the widest we could get there. But other roads with painted medians could have their outside lanes widened further.

NCDOT recommends that bike lane striping and stencils not be added unless the bike lane is at least 4' wide not including gutter or drain grates, and the travel lane is at least 11' wide. They recommend a bike lane wider than 4' if the travel lane is narrower than 12 feet, so 16' is the magic number. None of our lane-stripe shifting opportunities will free up that much space. However, cyclists report that the 13' and 14' lanes are a big improvement over the 11' and 12' lanes we usually have.

sggoodri

Removing on-street parking from both sides of half a mile of street would cost about two million dollars in parking garage construction, and it would be less convenient to many of the patrons.

Chatham Street through downtown Cary has a 2-lane section on the East side with on-street parking, and a 4-lane section on the west side. The 2-lane section is seeing revitalized business with pedestrian-oriented urban design and substantial pedestrian traffic. The 4-lane section sees far fewer pedestrians and is somewhat bleak. The city of Cary has developed a plan to convert the 4-lane section to 2-lanes with on-street parking as part of their beautification and revitalization efforts to make it both pedestrian-friendly and business-friendly.

Similarly, Raleigh's pedestrian mall was recently converted to allow motor traffic in order to revitalize the businesses there. On-street parking was an important component of their "Livable Streets" plan:

https://www.raleighnc.gov/portal/serv...yetteville.htm

On the other hand, here's an article from our web site discussing the problems on-street parking can create for cyclists, and how to mitigate this:

https://www.humantransport.org/bicycl.../door_zone.pdf

I-Like-To-Bike

Rain? Whatz dat? There is no rain problem for Plymouth drivers in San Diego, ipso facto there is no rain (or snow, or cold weather) problems anywhere. Don't you realize that the bike world revolves around Southern California? Get wid da program!