Nearly Fatal Bicycle-Automobile Accident in Portland
02-08-07, 06:55 PM
#26
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Hey everybody!!! Look!
Helmet Head has just made the first step towards recognizing that his talk is all hot air!
It's okay, HH. The first step towards the cure is acceptance of the problem.
Helmet Head has just made the first step towards recognizing that his talk is all hot air!
It's okay, HH. The first step towards the cure is acceptance of the problem.
__________________
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
02-08-07, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Hey everybody!!! Look!
Helmet Head has just made the first step towards recognizing that his talk is all hot air!
It's okay, HH. The first step towards the cure is acceptance of the problem.
Helmet Head has just made the first step towards recognizing that his talk is all hot air!
It's okay, HH. The first step towards the cure is acceptance of the problem.
02-08-07, 07:04 PM
#28
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Indeed.
Yes, that mentality is quite different from mine.
Thinking of oneself as one's best defense is consistent with an approach that sees external hazards against which one must defend himself. It's, well, defensive thinking. And consistent with this, should you fail to defend yourself appropriately, is victimization thinking. While you failed to defend yourself, or failed to properly prepare for a given situation, it's still not your fault that some guy ran the red light, or there was ice in the road, or there was glass in the road, or whatever.
My approach involves seeing myself as part of the environment - I'm not defending myself, I'm integrating myself with it in a manner that serves me. If it doesn't serve me, if I get hit by a red light runner or slip on some ice, then I have failed to integrate myself with the environment in an appropriate manner.
Yes, that mentality is quite different from mine.
Thinking of oneself as one's best defense is consistent with an approach that sees external hazards against which one must defend himself. It's, well, defensive thinking. And consistent with this, should you fail to defend yourself appropriately, is victimization thinking. While you failed to defend yourself, or failed to properly prepare for a given situation, it's still not your fault that some guy ran the red light, or there was ice in the road, or there was glass in the road, or whatever.
My approach involves seeing myself as part of the environment - I'm not defending myself, I'm integrating myself with it in a manner that serves me. If it doesn't serve me, if I get hit by a red light runner or slip on some ice, then I have failed to integrate myself with the environment in an appropriate manner.
Speaking of which... g'dby.
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
02-08-07, 07:22 PM
#29
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You just had to go and dare HH to make a case about drunk driving/riding into an issue about bike lanes.
Duh, HH, drunks are careless by definition! It has nothing to do with bike lanes. How many drunks have shot their own feet off cleaning their guns? Is that the problem of guns being around the house or drinking to excess? Or wait, maybe it's the fault of bike lanes. Yeah. Got it.
Duh, HH, drunks are careless by definition! It has nothing to do with bike lanes. How many drunks have shot their own feet off cleaning their guns? Is that the problem of guns being around the house or drinking to excess? Or wait, maybe it's the fault of bike lanes. Yeah. Got it.
02-08-07, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
You just had to go and dare HH to make a case about drunk driving/riding into an issue about bike lanes.
Duh, HH, drunks are careless by definition! It has nothing to do with bike lanes. How many drunks have shot their own feet off cleaning their guns? Is that the problem of guns being around the house or drinking to excess? Or wait, maybe it's the fault of bike lanes. Yeah. Got it.
Duh, HH, drunks are careless by definition! It has nothing to do with bike lanes. How many drunks have shot their own feet off cleaning their guns? Is that the problem of guns being around the house or drinking to excess? Or wait, maybe it's the fault of bike lanes. Yeah. Got it.
02-08-07, 07:49 PM
#31
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Blue Order
Driver and Cyclist Both DUI
Drunk driver.
Drunk cyclist, at night, cyclist wearing dark clothing, no lights, and no helmet.
Intersection accident, cyclist was on a street with a stop sign; no stop sign for the car.
Darwin awards time.
Drunk driver.
Drunk cyclist, at night, cyclist wearing dark clothing, no lights, and no helmet.
Intersection accident, cyclist was on a street with a stop sign; no stop sign for the car.
Darwin awards time.
One In Three Fatal Bicycle Accidents Linked To Alcohol
Drinking alcohol and bicycling don?t mix well, say Johns Hopkins researchers, whose study of 466 Maryland bicyclists found that a third of fatally injured riders had elevated blood alcohol levels at the time of their accident. In addition, a blood alcohol concentration of 0.08 grams per deciliter ? the legal level of drunkenness in most states ? was found to increase the rider?s risk of fatal or serious injury by 2,000 percent.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press...ARY/010220.HTM
02-08-07, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
One In Three Fatal Bicycle Accidents Linked To Alcohol
Drinking alcohol and bicycling don?t mix well, say Johns Hopkins researchers, whose study of 466 Maryland bicyclists found that a third of fatally injured riders had elevated blood alcohol levels at the time of their accident. In addition, a blood alcohol concentration of 0.08 grams per deciliter ? the legal level of drunkenness in most states ? was found to increase the rider?s risk of fatal or serious injury by 2,000 percent.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press...ARY/010220.HTM
Drinking alcohol and bicycling don?t mix well, say Johns Hopkins researchers, whose study of 466 Maryland bicyclists found that a third of fatally injured riders had elevated blood alcohol levels at the time of their accident. In addition, a blood alcohol concentration of 0.08 grams per deciliter ? the legal level of drunkenness in most states ? was found to increase the rider?s risk of fatal or serious injury by 2,000 percent.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press...ARY/010220.HTM
I think you just posted a link to a study that supports bicycle helmet usage.
John
02-08-07, 09:08 PM
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Do you think drunk cyclists fare best when they ride on 6 lane, narrow, high-speed, no-bike lane roads?
02-08-07, 09:58 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
Closetbiker,
I think you just posted a link to a study that supports bicycle helmet usage.
John
I think you just posted a link to a study that supports bicycle helmet usage.
John
Sheesh. Goes to show how harmful that train of thought can lead.Anyway, between this report and the recent one you posted in that other thread, children and drunks on bikes make up three-quarters of all cycling deaths, so we have little to worry about, eh?
Last edited by closetbiker; 02-09-07 at 12:12 AM.
02-08-07, 11:26 PM
#36
Senior Member
Odd. I thought there was a direct reference to both of them getting charged. However, we do know that both were drinking, and apparently in Oregon, biking under the influence yields a DUII as well. I saw this on one of the previous versions of the KATU news report. Perhaps I am wrong; I don't really know what happens when the person driving or cycling under the influence is the one hurt by the accident.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
02-08-07, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Odd. I thought there was a direct reference to both of them getting charged. However, we do know that both were drinking, and apparently in Oregon, biking under the influence yields a DUII as well. I saw this on one of the previous versions of the KATU news report. Perhaps I am wrong; I don't really know what happens when the person driving or cycling under the influence is the one hurt by the accident.
02-08-07, 11:37 PM
#38
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Poor girl. Don't drink and bike...
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
02-08-07, 11:40 PM
#39
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Yeah, I hope she pulls through, I hope she gets her health back, I hope she gets back on a bike, and I hope she's learned her lessons...
02-09-07, 12:45 AM
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yeah I hope she gets better too, I did a search for her name, this came up https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22Daw...G=Search&hl=en
maybe she should stop drinking
maybe she should stop drinking
02-09-07, 12:51 AM
#41
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when i used to drink and bike regularily, I wouldn't have been able to even recognize a bike lane! And those curbs they'd mysteriously install in the middle of the road during the workday 
would just throw me some nights. and the next morning, on the way back to work, the curb'd be gone....
got to learn how to roll with it. a couple of serious head knockers too, always glad i was wearing my helmet while drunk biking!
she probably did a couple of thousand in damages to the truck.
Dawn, get well soon, best wishes for a complete recovery. you'll probably be liable for all damages. oh well, could've been worse.....
would just throw me some nights. and the next morning, on the way back to work, the curb'd be gone....got to learn how to roll with it. a couple of serious head knockers too, always glad i was wearing my helmet while drunk biking!
she probably did a couple of thousand in damages to the truck.
Dawn, get well soon, best wishes for a complete recovery. you'll probably be liable for all damages. oh well, could've been worse.....
02-09-07, 07:30 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
Closetbiker,
I think you just posted a link to a study that supports bicycle helmet usage.
John
I think you just posted a link to a study that supports bicycle helmet usage.
John
developing education and other intervention programs).
see: https://www.rightofway.org/research/jama.pdf
02-09-07, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Indeed.
Yes, that mentality is quite different from mine.
Thinking of oneself as one's best defense is consistent with an approach that sees external hazards against which one must defend himself. It's, well, defensive thinking. And consistent with this, should you fail to defend yourself appropriately, is victimization thinking. While you failed to defend yourself, or failed to properly prepare for a given situation, it's still not your fault that some guy ran the red light, or there was ice in the road, or there was glass in the road, or whatever.
My approach involves seeing myself as part of the environment - I'm not defending myself, I'm integrating myself with it in a manner that serves me. If it doesn't serve me, if I get hit by a red light runner or slip on some ice, then I have failed to integrate myself with the environment in an appropriate manner.
Yes, that mentality is quite different from mine.
Thinking of oneself as one's best defense is consistent with an approach that sees external hazards against which one must defend himself. It's, well, defensive thinking. And consistent with this, should you fail to defend yourself appropriately, is victimization thinking. While you failed to defend yourself, or failed to properly prepare for a given situation, it's still not your fault that some guy ran the red light, or there was ice in the road, or there was glass in the road, or whatever.
My approach involves seeing myself as part of the environment - I'm not defending myself, I'm integrating myself with it in a manner that serves me. If it doesn't serve me, if I get hit by a red light runner or slip on some ice, then I have failed to integrate myself with the environment in an appropriate manner.
Have you also heard the best defense is a good offense. With either aggressive or defensive riding I place myself in the best position to go with the flow of traffic. In some cases I place myself where the car won't even know Im there, for the fact that if they are making a right turn and I swing around the left of their car and everything goes smoothly I consider that the best for going with the flow of traffic. In other situation either with use of my whistle or where I position myself I make sure I get eye contact so we both know (me and cager) what the other is doing. Being your best defense doesn't mean you are expecting to be a victim at any moment. It means you are looking out for yourself using whatever actions are required.
02-09-07, 10:54 AM
#44
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Well, since two of you insist...
The plethora of bike lanes and other bicycling facilities inevitably casts a cloud of carelessness in the minds of Portland cyclists, leading to mindless and lackadaisical cyclist behavior in general, which infects them even on roads without facilities. Running stop signs in front of cross traffic is par for the course for Portland cyclists disabled by bike lane mentality and associated expectations, like invincibility while cycling.
How's that?She just got smashed and lost her way...
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No worries
02-09-07, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by GaryA
You were on the debate team in school weren't you? You can grab one word and try to completely change the intended meaning of the statement.
Have you also heard the best defense is a good offense. With either aggressive or defensive riding I place myself in the best position to go with the flow of traffic. In some cases I place myself where the car won't even know Im there, for the fact that if they are making a right turn and I swing around the left of their car and everything goes smoothly I consider that the best for going with the flow of traffic. In other situation either with use of my whistle or where I position myself I make sure I get eye contact so we both know (me and cager) what the other is doing. Being your best defense doesn't mean you are expecting to be a victim at any moment. It means you are looking out for yourself using whatever actions are required.
Have you also heard the best defense is a good offense. With either aggressive or defensive riding I place myself in the best position to go with the flow of traffic. In some cases I place myself where the car won't even know Im there, for the fact that if they are making a right turn and I swing around the left of their car and everything goes smoothly I consider that the best for going with the flow of traffic. In other situation either with use of my whistle or where I position myself I make sure I get eye contact so we both know (me and cager) what the other is doing. Being your best defense doesn't mean you are expecting to be a victim at any moment. It means you are looking out for yourself using whatever actions are required.
Maybe I am splitting hairs, but, honestly, I think there is a significant difference between seeing yourself as the biggest threat to your safety versus seeing yourself as your best line of defense. Obviously, there is a lot of overlap, we can certainly agree on that much.
I think the difference is that seeing yourself as your own best line of defense can lead to more of a reactive approach, while seeing yourself as your own biggest threat leads to more of a proactive approach.
For example, in dealing with inattentive drivers, the "best line of defense"/reactive approach might be to try to identify inattentive drivers and steer clear of them, while the proactive approach is to identify those drivers whose attention may matter to your safety in the near future, ignore those whose attention doesn't matter to your safety, and to keep yourself from getting in a position where their attention matters to your safety before you are able to verify that they are paying attention to you.
Again, perhaps I am splitting hairs. But I honestly think the difference is subtle but significant, especially when you're out there making split-second decisions.
02-09-07, 11:24 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
(no, I was never on a debate team)
Maybe I am splitting hairs, but, honestly, I think there is a significant difference between seeing yourself as the biggest threat to your safety versus seeing yourself as your best line of defense. Obviously, there is a lot of overlap, we can certainly agree on that much.
I think the difference is that seeing yourself as your own best line of defense can lead to more of a reactive approach, while seeing yourself as your own biggest threat leads to more of a proactive approach.
For example, in dealing with inattentive drivers, the "best line of defense"/reactive approach might be to try to identify inattentive drivers and steer clear of them, while the proactive approach is to identify those drivers whose attention may matter to your safety in the near future, ignore those whose attention doesn't matter to your safety, and to keep yourself from getting in a position where their attention matters to your safety before you are able to verify that they are paying attention to you.
Again, perhaps I am splitting hairs. But I honestly think the difference is subtle but significant, especially when you're out there making split-second decisions.
Maybe I am splitting hairs, but, honestly, I think there is a significant difference between seeing yourself as the biggest threat to your safety versus seeing yourself as your best line of defense. Obviously, there is a lot of overlap, we can certainly agree on that much.
I think the difference is that seeing yourself as your own best line of defense can lead to more of a reactive approach, while seeing yourself as your own biggest threat leads to more of a proactive approach.
For example, in dealing with inattentive drivers, the "best line of defense"/reactive approach might be to try to identify inattentive drivers and steer clear of them, while the proactive approach is to identify those drivers whose attention may matter to your safety in the near future, ignore those whose attention doesn't matter to your safety, and to keep yourself from getting in a position where their attention matters to your safety before you are able to verify that they are paying attention to you.
Again, perhaps I am splitting hairs. But I honestly think the difference is subtle but significant, especially when you're out there making split-second decisions.
I think we are saying nearly the same thing but are using different terms. When I ride I use many different techniques (for lack of a better word) sometime I am proactive; realize a driver is not seeing me blow my whistle to get his/her attention before we have trouble, reactive; they didn't see me or I wasn't ready for the stupid move (none signalling or swerving) they just made so I am on the brakes/or accelerating while blowing my whistle to get their attention or defensive; I can tell they are just out of it or are don't like bicycles and are going to be trouble so I just plain avoid them.
Being my best defense takes many forms and riding styles.
02-09-07, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Blue Order
I don't know if she's been charged yet or not, but I would be surprised if they don't charge her. Her problems have only just begun...
02-09-07, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Perhaps I am wrong; I don't really know what happens when the person driving or cycling under the influence is the one hurt by the accident.
They WILL leave a DUI ticket right at ones bedside.
02-09-07, 12:19 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by Big_knob
If they were going to they would have already done so.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
02-09-07, 12:34 PM
#50
Senior Member
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
And deeply flawed just like other "studies" formulated by a team with an agenda to reach a predetermined conclusion (to provide "scientific data" for developing education and other intervention programs).
see: https://www.rightofway.org/research/jama.pdf
see: https://www.rightofway.org/research/jama.pdf
The helmet laws that worked well for children should be extended to adult bicyclists, says Susan P. Baker, M.P.H.
) for children, have had the same conditions occurring in falls as for drunk adults colliding with cars. Sheesh. That this is a suggestion on how to manage drunks on bicycles is asinine.
Ms. Baker should be embarrassed to have her name associated with such drivel. It's insulting to her intelligence.
**did I say drivel? I should have said, deception.**
Last edited by closetbiker; 02-09-07 at 01:21 PM.