View Poll Results: Is cyclist/cycling/bike advocacy political? (see OP)
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll
Is cyclist/cycling/bike advocacy political?
03-21-07, 08:44 AM
#26
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I like John E's belief that the right of movement should be protected as a natural right. Maybe we are allowed to own and use a bike, but we might find in certain cities, that there are certain enfringements on that right. Like , say, - certain locations you can only walk that bike on a sidewalk. In the Netherlands bikes almost share equal status with the automobile. What degree of parity to 'equal status to a car', do we expect to find the the automative crazed US.
03-21-07, 09:52 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by chipcom
HH, nobody ever said that advocacy does not have a political aspect, I know that I have said that there is a difference between advocacy and POLITICS. Which is why I posted the definition of POLITICS. Riding my bike is not politics, though it might be advocacy.
Too bad you didn't do that when you first started making assertions like this:
Originally Posted by Chipcom
You and HH have admitted that vehicular cycling, in your terms, has political and technical aspects. Do you have a problem keeping your politics in the proper forum and discussing the technical aspects here? Or are they so closely interwined that you can't separate the two.
Pardon me if I misunderstood.
Edit: Please clarify how it is that just because vc has political aspects (in particular, vc advocacy), discussing those aspects does not belong in this forum, and it is only appropriate to discuss the technical aspects of vc here, while it is appropriate to discuss (non-vc?) advocacy in this forum, including the political aspects of it which you admit it has.
Last edited by Helmet Head; 03-21-07 at 09:59 AM.
03-21-07, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by pj7
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Absent anyone being able to identify even a single aspect of advocacy that is not political, I had no choice but to vote yes.
Well, some people (who are not defending their positions here), have asserted that advocacy is not political, or is not necessarily political. Indeed, the majority in this poll is picking the middle position, which means they think much of advocacy is not political. Curious that, since no one has yet identified a single aspect of advocacy that is not political.
Well, some people (who are not defending their positions here), have asserted that advocacy is not political, or is not necessarily political. Indeed, the majority in this poll is picking the middle position, which means they think much of advocacy is not political. Curious that, since no one has yet identified a single aspect of advocacy that is not political.
And for all of you who voted advocacy has non-political aspects, I'm still waiting to hear what those might be.
I can come up with one:
- Notifying the traffic division that a light sensor does not detect bicyclists is arguably not political (no more than calling to report a broken water main is political).
Anything else?
03-21-07, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Oh, so now you are making the big distinction between "politics" and "political"?
Too bad you didn't do that when you first started making assertions like this:
Notice how Kail and I admitted that vc advocacy is political, and you claimed it is not in the proper forum based on that alone (after you twisted "political" into "your politics"). The implication was that if it's political (our word, not politics - your word), A&S is not the proper forum.
Pardon me if I misunderstood.
Edit: Please clarify how it is that just because vc has political aspects (in particular, vc advocacy), discussing those aspects does not belong in this forum, and it is only appropriate to discuss the technical aspects of vc here, while it is appropriate to discuss (non-vc?) advocacy in this forum, including the political aspects of it which you admit it has.
Too bad you didn't do that when you first started making assertions like this:
Notice how Kail and I admitted that vc advocacy is political, and you claimed it is not in the proper forum based on that alone (after you twisted "political" into "your politics"). The implication was that if it's political (our word, not politics - your word), A&S is not the proper forum.
Pardon me if I misunderstood.
Edit: Please clarify how it is that just because vc has political aspects (in particular, vc advocacy), discussing those aspects does not belong in this forum, and it is only appropriate to discuss the technical aspects of vc here, while it is appropriate to discuss (non-vc?) advocacy in this forum, including the political aspects of it which you admit it has.
The point of whole advocacy/politics thing is now moot, since the solution was to separate vc into it's own subforum. But of course a point being moot has never kept you from continuing to try to debate, but as I committed late last night, I'm no longer going be baited into your pointless debates. I'm sure you'll come to whatever conclusions you wish from your poll.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-21-07, 10:26 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
And for all of you who voted advocacy has non-political aspects, I'm still waiting to hear what those might be.
I can come up with one:
- Notifying the traffic division that a light sensor does not detect bicyclists is arguably not political (no more than calling to report a broken water main is political).
Anything else?
I can come up with one:
- Notifying the traffic division that a light sensor does not detect bicyclists is arguably not political (no more than calling to report a broken water main is political).
Anything else?
Originally Posted by chipcom
I can 'advocate' riding a bike to work by riding a bike to work - the act of doing so simply being a personal example of what I think is the right thing to do - having nothing to do with organized groups, government, laws, public policy or anything political. Setting a personal example can be advocacy but not necessarily politics.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-21-07, 10:42 AM
#31
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This section of bikeforums is political. I learned a loooooong looooong time ago your not allowed to voice an opinion that goes against the pure the hatred of the car. You also must agrre that 'taking the lane' is your god given right and doing otherwise makes you a troll. At least thats what I was called......
Ride safe..
Jim
Ride safe..
Jim
03-21-07, 12:21 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by chipcom
If you will recall, HH, posted definitions of both Advocacy and Politics in another thread, indeed the exact same definition for Politics that I posted hear earlier. That you decided to take a different response out of context to use here does not surprise me.
The point of whole advocacy/politics thing is now moot, since the solution was to separate vc into it's own subforum. But of course a point being moot has never kept you from continuing to try to debate, but as I committed late last night, I'm no longer going be baited into your pointless debates. I'm sure you'll come to whatever conclusions you wish from your poll.
Please clarify.
03-21-07, 08:41 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by miamijim
This section of bikeforums is political. I learned a loooooong looooong time ago your not allowed to voice an opinion that goes against the pure the hatred of the car. You also must agrre that 'taking the lane' is your god given right and doing otherwise makes you a troll. At least thats what I was called......
Ride safe..Jim
Ride safe..Jim
Hard to overcome those prejudices. More often than not I hate the car, even tho I will always have one. My question, Jim. Did you expect to change their views or did you get flamed for not agreeing with them or are you angry because you don't like their views. Just because some of us feel that way, does not mean we all expect you to. ?
03-22-07, 09:10 AM
#34
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Originally Posted by bigpedaler
the LEAST political thing we as cycling advocates can do is just to ride.
Case in point: On the early evening of election day last November, I was among a large number of commuters who got off a train at a certain station in suburban New Jersey. Most of my fellow commuters headed to their parked cars, while a few, including myself, went to our parked bicycles. We all passed through a gauntlet of volunteers who were canvassing for the local congressman. As it happened, these volunteers had positioned themselves right in the bicycle parking area, where they very politely addressed each of the commuters who were headed for their cars, asking "have you voted yet?" The strange thing was, they accosted only the people who were heading for their cars. After they had gone by, the volunteers got together and stood around talking to one another, waiting for the next train and the next wave of commuters. The bicycle commuters were, at this point, still there-- stowing our gear, putting on our helmets, &c. This would have been the perfect time for those volunteers to canvass us... but they didn't bother.
It seemed the volunteers had made a mental calculation that anyone with a bicycle was not going to vote for their candidate.
Anyone want to guess that congressman's political affiliation?
03-22-07, 11:32 PM
#35
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It's socio-political, but really it should be common sense. for most of us it is. Live and let live. Whether you ride, walk, or drive, be safe and keep the safety of others in mind.
This apparantly only exists in a utopian community.
This apparantly only exists in a utopian community.
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03-23-07, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
That's like saying the least political thing Rosa Parks could do is refuse to obey the demand of a bus driver to relinquish her seat to a white man.
Getting on the road and asserting our rights to do so is not all that different, and relative to its own political context, no less important.
Getting on the road and asserting our rights to do so is not all that different, and relative to its own political context, no less important.
she had tired feet.
somebody else took it and ran.
pedaler was sayin ridin was the smallest on the list.
03-23-07, 12:40 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by stubblehead
yo- Rosa didn't have agenda.
she had tired feet.
somebody else took it and ran.
pedaler was sayin ridin was the smallest on the list.
she had tired feet.
somebody else took it and ran.
pedaler was sayin ridin was the smallest on the list.
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03-23-07, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Treespeed
Riding VC at rush hour in Los Angeles is definitely a political statement. 
03-23-07, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
Riding a bicycle is a political statement irrespective of whether it's done in the VC manner or not; or whether the person on the bicycle thinks that they are making a political statement or not. In the same way, driving a motor vehicle is a political statement, whether the motorist thinks so or not.
As far as riding VC in LA rush hour, it may or may not be a political statement, but I think it's surely at least a cry for help!
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
