Your tax dollars at work
#1
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Your tax dollars at work
Just outside of downtown Miami is the exclusive enclave of key Biscayne, which can only be reached by a causeway. The causeway has a very wide shoulder so it is he used heavily by cyclists. The rich residents of key Biscayne, however, resent the fact that anyone else can use "their" causeway and have complained to the police who are more than willing to oblige them to rid Tony key Biscayne of the scourge of bicyclists.
So on Wednesday morning I was doing the Wednesdat morning training ride/race with a group of between 50 and 100 cyclists and as we approach a stop light on the Causeway, the light turns yellow as the first people in the group get to the intersection and is red by the time those in the back of the group crossed the intersection. The police, knowing the exact time that the group is on Causeway, had three cruisers waiting to catch us. One cruiser speeds past us and stops in the middle of the road, almost running into some cyclists. Most of the cyclists don't even stop, but I did. The police readily admit that the only reason they are doing this is because the residents have complained. I asked the police officer what's more dangerous, the bicyclists on the causeway or the speeders. He readily admits that speeding is more dangerous on the cause wait where the posted speed limit 40 mph, and the average speed is 60-80 mph on the causeway.
Eventually, about five police cars including a supervisor are involved in the "bust", tying up early-morning rush-hour traffic for miles. I got a $200 ticket for running a red light which I'm going to contest.
So on Wednesday morning I was doing the Wednesdat morning training ride/race with a group of between 50 and 100 cyclists and as we approach a stop light on the Causeway, the light turns yellow as the first people in the group get to the intersection and is red by the time those in the back of the group crossed the intersection. The police, knowing the exact time that the group is on Causeway, had three cruisers waiting to catch us. One cruiser speeds past us and stops in the middle of the road, almost running into some cyclists. Most of the cyclists don't even stop, but I did. The police readily admit that the only reason they are doing this is because the residents have complained. I asked the police officer what's more dangerous, the bicyclists on the causeway or the speeders. He readily admits that speeding is more dangerous on the cause wait where the posted speed limit 40 mph, and the average speed is 60-80 mph on the causeway.
Eventually, about five police cars including a supervisor are involved in the "bust", tying up early-morning rush-hour traffic for miles. I got a $200 ticket for running a red light which I'm going to contest.
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
#2
Senior Member
You rode through a red light and don't think you should be ticketed for running a red light?
File a complaint about all the speeding cars on the causeway and ask for the same kind of special enforcement on them. Get everyone on the ride to do the same.
File a complaint about all the speeding cars on the causeway and ask for the same kind of special enforcement on them. Get everyone on the ride to do the same.
#4
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I do assume/hope that that entire group of 50-100 did not all go thru if when the lead riders were entering it was just turning yellow? Does it break into a few smaller sized groups? Are there no clues that the signal will soon change (for example cross-walk signal changes to flashing 'do not walk')?
From here it sounds more like the group of 50-100 expects to do this as opposed to getting caught in a unplanned situation.
Al
#5
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There has been some discussion within the cycling community regarding whether a peleton should be regarded as a single unit or as a platoon of separate vehicles. This is one reason I hate riding in large groups -- if I run the red, I risk getting busted, but if I stop I risk causing serious injury to those behind me.
Although I generally support enforcement of traffic laws for bicyclists, I am not sure we should be paying the same $200+ fines assessed against motorists, given the relative public safety implications of our actions.
Although I generally support enforcement of traffic laws for bicyclists, I am not sure we should be paying the same $200+ fines assessed against motorists, given the relative public safety implications of our actions.
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
#6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
When a car enters an intersection on a yellow and the light turns red as he is going through the intersection, it is not a stop light violation. Same principle applies here.
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
#7
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seems like a complete double standard. I remember a recent thread where almost ever poster here was applauding the installation of red light cams to catch motorists driving illegally. Nevermind that there are plenty of studies that show they don't actually make anyone safer.....
Would you have the same complaint if the red light cameras were able to ticket cyclists? Not one bit of difference, imo between a red light cam and a police officer staking out an intersection.
Pay your fine (unless you didn't actually run a red light) and tackle the speeding issue another day. They aren't related.
Would you have the same complaint if the red light cameras were able to ticket cyclists? Not one bit of difference, imo between a red light cam and a police officer staking out an intersection.
Pay your fine (unless you didn't actually run a red light) and tackle the speeding issue another day. They aren't related.
#8
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i would say that groups this big are inherently dangerous, as i've witnessed many times where stragglers from the back of the group run reds to stay with the group and it causes a lot of confusion with waiting traffic. seems okay if the group is tightly packed together, but that's not offen the case near the back where it can get strung out.
#9
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The light turned yellow as those in the front crossed the intersection. Its a group of over 50 riders packed together like sardines, what were the riders who got caught by the red suppoed to do, slam on the brakes and crash everyone in back of them?
When a car enters an intersection on a yellow and the light turns red as he is going through the intersection, it is not a stop light violation. Same principle applies here.
When a car enters an intersection on a yellow and the light turns red as he is going through the intersection, it is not a stop light violation. Same principle applies here.
The car you describe above is one vehicle, with one driver. Your bicycle is one vehicle with one driver. A peloton is a group of vehicles, albeit traveling together, but none the less... a group of single vehicles.
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
seems like a complete double standard. I remember a recent thread where almost ever poster here was applauding the installation of red light cams to catch motorists driving illegally. Nevermind that there are plenty of studies that show they don't actually make anyone safer.....
Would you have the same complaint if the red light cameras were able to ticket cyclists? Not one bit of difference, imo between a red light cam and a police officer staking out an intersection.
Pay your fine (unless you didn't actually run a red light) and tackle the speeding issue another day. They aren't related.
Would you have the same complaint if the red light cameras were able to ticket cyclists? Not one bit of difference, imo between a red light cam and a police officer staking out an intersection.
Pay your fine (unless you didn't actually run a red light) and tackle the speeding issue another day. They aren't related.
Would you like to comment on that topic?
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
#11
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Something tells me that Florida law requires vehicles to stop on red. If that's the case, there's nothing "questionable" about the moving violations. Of course, you could base your defense on the group's violation of the "following too closely" statute, as you argued in a previous post, but I don't think that's going to pan out the way you think it will.
#12
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realy doubt it's rich people that was the source.
Up here whenever the city starts whining about funds, it's a sure bet that they will start pulling people over for anything and everything.
There's a couple spots in Grand Rapids where speed limits change drastically for no real reason, half a block before a couple intersections the SL drops by 10mph, and picks up again right after it, the ONLY time you see peple getting tickets in that area is when the city is whining about funds, then they have a dozen cars in that area.
If it was a normal ride that uses that route on a regular basis, it could be that it was noticed earlier and used as a revenue source.
Don't get me wrong, I have no use for most police officers, for the most part they are just collection agents with no more capacity for original thought than an ant out collecting food for the hive.
Ken.
Up here whenever the city starts whining about funds, it's a sure bet that they will start pulling people over for anything and everything.
There's a couple spots in Grand Rapids where speed limits change drastically for no real reason, half a block before a couple intersections the SL drops by 10mph, and picks up again right after it, the ONLY time you see peple getting tickets in that area is when the city is whining about funds, then they have a dozen cars in that area.
If it was a normal ride that uses that route on a regular basis, it could be that it was noticed earlier and used as a revenue source.
Don't get me wrong, I have no use for most police officers, for the most part they are just collection agents with no more capacity for original thought than an ant out collecting food for the hive.
Ken.
#13
Senior Member
Thread Starter
realy doubt it's rich people that was the source.
Up here whenever the city starts whining about funds, it's a sure bet that they will start pulling people over for anything and everything.
There's a couple spots in Grand Rapids where speed limits change drastically for no real reason, half a block before a couple intersections the SL drops by 10mph, and picks up again right after it, the ONLY time you see peple getting tickets in that area is when the city is whining about funds, then they have a dozen cars in that area.
If it was a normal ride that uses that route on a regular basis, it could be that it was noticed earlier and used as a revenue source.
Don't get me wrong, I have no use for most police officers, for the most part they are just collection agents with no more capacity for original thought than an ant out collecting food for the hive.
Ken.
Up here whenever the city starts whining about funds, it's a sure bet that they will start pulling people over for anything and everything.
There's a couple spots in Grand Rapids where speed limits change drastically for no real reason, half a block before a couple intersections the SL drops by 10mph, and picks up again right after it, the ONLY time you see peple getting tickets in that area is when the city is whining about funds, then they have a dozen cars in that area.
If it was a normal ride that uses that route on a regular basis, it could be that it was noticed earlier and used as a revenue source.
Don't get me wrong, I have no use for most police officers, for the most part they are just collection agents with no more capacity for original thought than an ant out collecting food for the hive.
Ken.
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
#14
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Stop at stop lights. But more importantly-be prepared to stop at stop lights- that means don't bunch up in a huge, tight group as you approach stoplights. And if that means you can't play pro pelaton in town, too flippin' bad for you.
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He even states in his original post "training ride/race" what on earth makes people think it is ok for 50-100 cyclists to get out on the road for a race without closing down the road?
Last edited by maddyfish; 03-13-08 at 05:52 PM.
#16
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Thread Starter
Something tells me that Florida law requires vehicles to stop on red. If that's the case, there's nothing "questionable" about the moving violations. Of course, you could base your defense on the group's violation of the "following too closely" statute, as you argued in a previous post, but I don't think that's going to pan out the way you think it will.
Spitting on the sidewalk is an offense in many states, if all of a sudden the cops enforce the no-spitting laws is it because they are afraid of a tuberculosis outbreak or is it a pretext to arrest somebody they don't like? Same thing here, cops are singling out and harrassing cyclists because some residents don't like them riding on "their" streets, not because they are being unsafe.
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
What law prohibits 50-100 cyclists riding together in a group?
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
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You seem to miss the point also. Cyclists were specifically targetted not because of their alleged violations, but to harrass them based upon resident complaints, all verifired by the officer that stopped me.
Spitting on the sidewalk is an offense in many states, if all of a sudden the cops enforce the no-spitting laws is it because they are afraid of a tuberculosis outbreak or is it a pretext to arrest somebody they don't like? Same thing here, cops are singling out and harrassing cyclists because some residents don't like them riding on "their" streets, not because they are being unsafe.
Spitting on the sidewalk is an offense in many states, if all of a sudden the cops enforce the no-spitting laws is it because they are afraid of a tuberculosis outbreak or is it a pretext to arrest somebody they don't like? Same thing here, cops are singling out and harrassing cyclists because some residents don't like them riding on "their" streets, not because they are being unsafe.
#19
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No, we understand "the point". We just DON'T CARE.
Somewhat less than fifty to one hundred vehicles ran a red light, at speed. You were stopped by police and ticketed appropriately.
It really is that simple.
I applaud the police for this. It sounds like the police were polite and reasonable in the performance of their duties.
If this should happen again, the ones approaching the intersection as the light goes yellow should call "Stopping", and stop. This too, really is that simple. This is what we expect of any and all vehicles on a public roadway.
Somewhat less than fifty to one hundred vehicles ran a red light, at speed. You were stopped by police and ticketed appropriately.
It really is that simple.
I applaud the police for this. It sounds like the police were polite and reasonable in the performance of their duties.
If this should happen again, the ones approaching the intersection as the light goes yellow should call "Stopping", and stop. This too, really is that simple. This is what we expect of any and all vehicles on a public roadway.
#20
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There simply wouldn't have been any violators to cite for running the red light if they had obeyed the law, and your misguided basis for an arguement wouldn't even exist. For you and those that chose to run the red light at an intersection in plain view of where you knew three police cars were waiting seems particularly foolish.
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But in the OP's post s/he got a red light ticket. Should have stopped. If you tell a judge that if you stopped you would have caused an accident with another bike then your going to be told that you shouldn't have put your self in that position and that if you where rear ended then it would be the fault of the person for following too close (tailgating).
I will never understand why people who admit to breaking the law go to different forums or media outlets and cry about the big bad police man who was out of line to wright you a ticket for something you honestly did. And if your upset now tickets on a bike in most states count on your drivers record as a moving violation and count as points raising your insurance. California is one of those states, when I was 15 I got a 'failure to yield' ticket. Did I deserve it? Yes considering it caused a wreck witch someone running a red light could do as well. BTW, my ticket was accompanied by 19 staples and a 2 week old now totaled bike, also I had high insurance from something that happened before I was allowed to drive. The mini-van made it just fine except for the speeding ticket they got.
#22
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I gotta agree. Excusing yourself for running a red light sounds a lot more egregious than rich people complaining about bikers breaking the law. You seriously need a clue here.
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I would say it falls under the anti-cruising laws a lot of cities have dictating how many of a certain type of vehicle (hotrod, lifted 4x4, low rider, motorcycle, bike) may travel in an organized group or pass a certain point more then a set amount of times in a certain amount of time. Big events have a pass on these laws most of the time but if this is just something you do I doubt you get a pass.
#25
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If it's a normal ride with the same amount of people and the same behavior at lights than I caould see where a complaint would cause a 'sting'
I'd bet it has nothing to do with the causeway, it has to do with riders habitually running the red or obstructing traffic, which would tend to produce complaints over time, enough complaints over a long enough time and the police will react.
If it was a once in a while thing for people to be running that light, there would have been NO reason to set up enough police cars to stop a group of riders. They knew it happened there, they knew there would be a group.
It happened often enough that there were plenty of complaints to get the cops away from the donut shop to take action.
Take your lumps and just be happy drivers were willing to wait for the bikes to go through instead of looking at it like a staging light.
Ken