Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Cyclists and Situational Awareness

Search
Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Cyclists and Situational Awareness

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 11-20-08, 02:07 PM
  #26  
triathlete? roadie? MTB?
 
caelric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Bellevue, NE
Posts: 384

Bikes: Cannondale Slice One tri bike, Cannondale F300 Hardtail MTB, Bianchi Giro roadie

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Treespeed
Some folks have trouble walking and chewing gum too.

Nuff said.

I survived two tours in Iraq, out in Fallujah, Najaf, and Ramadi, on patrols and such. I have pretty good situational awareness, of all kinds of things. I wouldn't have gone out on patrol with an iPod in my ears, and I won't ride a bike with them either.
caelric is offline  
Old 11-20-08, 03:24 PM
  #27  
uke
it's easy if you let it.
 
uke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: indoors and out.
Posts: 4,124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by caelric
I survived two tours in Iraq, out in Fallujah, Najaf, and Ramadi, on patrols and such. I have pretty good situational awareness, of all kinds of things. I wouldn't have gone out on patrol with an iPod in my ears, and I won't ride a bike with them either.
The day riding to class here approaches anything like a patrol in Fallujah, riding with earphones will be the least of my problems.
uke is offline  
Old 11-20-08, 06:52 PM
  #28  
Devilmaycare Cycling Fool
 
Allister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wynnum, Australia
Posts: 3,819

Bikes: 1998 Cannondale F700

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by caelric
I survived two tours in Iraq, out in Fallujah, Najaf, and Ramadi, on patrols and such. I have pretty good situational awareness, of all kinds of things. I wouldn't have gone out on patrol with an iPod in my ears, and I won't ride a bike with them either.
Yes, because bicycling is EXACTLY like desert combat.
Allister is offline  
Old 11-20-08, 06:54 PM
  #29  
Devilmaycare Cycling Fool
 
Allister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wynnum, Australia
Posts: 3,819

Bikes: 1998 Cannondale F700

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by uke
It's correct for me. Your mileage may vary.
That's ok. Not everyone is up to the challenge of learning how to do it.
Allister is offline  
Old 11-20-08, 07:09 PM
  #30  
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times in 3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Allister
Yes, because bicycling is EXACTLY like desert combat.
Well... there was one strong VC advocate here that compared cycling to piloting a jet plane...

Personally I thought it was a bit much...
genec is offline  
Old 11-20-08, 07:14 PM
  #31  
triathlete? roadie? MTB?
 
caelric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Bellevue, NE
Posts: 384

Bikes: Cannondale Slice One tri bike, Cannondale F300 Hardtail MTB, Bianchi Giro roadie

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Allister
Yes, because bicycling is EXACTLY like desert combat.

Of course it's not EXACTLY alike, and no where did I say so. If you read it that way, you are being deliberately obtuse.

However, there are similarities. You are moving around, in an area where various people are trying to kill you (whether deliberately, or due to ignorance/unawareness), and situational awareness is important.

If you want to reduce your SA by wearing earbuds, go ahead. But don't argue that they have no ill effect on your SA.
caelric is offline  
Old 11-20-08, 08:09 PM
  #32  
Gimp with a Limp
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
If you want to reduce your SA by wearing earbuds, go ahead. But don't argue that they have no ill effect on your SA.
It's not that earbuds won't negatively impact your SA, but rather that the impact in cycling tends to be pretty inconsequential. Maybe I haven't mastered the art of triangulating the distance, heading, and bearing, and speed of a passing car with my ears, but to be entirely fair my ears don't tell me a whole heck of a lot while riding. If you change your riding style every time you hear a car, then you probably want to be able to hear the car, but aside from riding on country roads with now and then traffic, I get almost no useful information via my hearing when I'm riding in traffic. Everything revolves around visual cues and awareness.

If I'm not making decisions based on the unintelligible chaos of engine noise in my ears, is it especially important that I'm able to hear it?

Last edited by GutterNinja!; 11-20-08 at 08:13 PM.
GutterNinja! is offline  
Old 11-20-08, 08:34 PM
  #33  
Senior Member
 
vettefrc2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere North of Detroit and moving fast!
Posts: 689

Bikes: 1976 Fuji America 1980 Fuji America 1984 Fuji America TS V 1982 Fuji Royale II 1993 Trek 970 1997 Trek 5000 2004 Trek Calypso 2007 Trek Portland 2008 Surly LTH

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 6 Posts
As defined by Endsley Situation awareness is the perception of environmental elements within a volume of time and space, the comprehension of their meaning, and the projection of their status in the near future.

For a cyclist it could unfold like this:

I am riding in the city. (perception of environmental elements)

During rush hour. (within a volume of time and space)

The city during rush hour (comprehension of their meaning,)

Maneuvering in traffic during rush hour (the projection of their status in the near future)

Means I need to use what I know and have learned from riding during rush hour and use this to not only anticipate what may happen during rush hour but also anticipate what others may do as the situation unfolds.
vettefrc2000 is offline  
Old 11-20-08, 08:36 PM
  #34  
Senior Member
 
vettefrc2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere North of Detroit and moving fast!
Posts: 689

Bikes: 1976 Fuji America 1980 Fuji America 1984 Fuji America TS V 1982 Fuji Royale II 1993 Trek 970 1997 Trek 5000 2004 Trek Calypso 2007 Trek Portland 2008 Surly LTH

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by Allister
Yes, because bicycling is EXACTLY like desert combat.
I would contend that it is. If you posses high levels of SA you are using the EXACT same tools.
vettefrc2000 is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 06:22 AM
  #35  
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360

Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by caelric
I survived two tours in Iraq, out in Fallujah, Najaf, and Ramadi, on patrols and such. I have pretty good situational awareness, of all kinds of things. I wouldn't have gone out on patrol with an iPod in my ears, and I won't ride a bike with them either.
Riding a bike isn't combat...duh.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 06:24 AM
  #36  
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360

Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by vettefrc2000
I would contend that it is. If you posses high levels of SA you are using the EXACT same tools.
Incorrect. Refer to the old 80/20 rule...which applies to cycling...not so much to combat.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 06:26 AM
  #37  
Tortoise Wins by a Hare!
 
AlmostTrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Looney Tunes, IL
Posts: 7,398

Bikes: Wabi Special FG, Raleigh Roper, Nashbar AL-1, Miyata One Hundred, '70 Schwinn Lemonator and More!!

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1549 Post(s)
Liked 942 Times in 504 Posts
Is it possible to put just an avatar on ignore?
AlmostTrick is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 06:32 AM
  #38  
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360

Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by caelric
Of course it's not EXACTLY alike, and no where did I say so. If you read it that way, you are being deliberately obtuse.

However, there are similarities. You are moving around, in an area where various people are trying to kill you (whether deliberately, or due to ignorance/unawareness), and situational awareness is important.

If you want to reduce your SA by wearing earbuds, go ahead. But don't argue that they have no ill effect on your SA.
Gimme a break...really. You don't need to be able to hear a pin drop when riding a bike. Me thinks that you, like others who have never even tried it, don't realize that you can still hear what you NEED to hear just fine when riding with music...unless you got it cranked up, or are easily distracted by music.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 06:52 AM
  #39  
For The Fun of It
 
Paul Barnard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Posts: 5,852

Bikes: Lynskey GR300, Lynskey Backroad, Litespeed T6, Lynskey MT29, Burley Duet

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2135 Post(s)
Liked 1,647 Times in 829 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
Gimme a break...really. You don't need to be able to hear a pin drop when riding a bike. Me thinks that you, like others who have never even tried it, don't realize that you can still hear what you NEED to hear just fine when riding with music...unless you got it cranked up, or are easily distracted by music.

I'm not going to try to equate motorcycling with bicycling, but I have found what you said to bear true in motorcycling. I wear ear plugs under my helmet. They attenuate the wind noise to the point I feel like it helps me hear other noises.
Paul Barnard is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 07:06 AM
  #40  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,978

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,538 Times in 1,047 Posts
Originally Posted by healtheeliving
I just wanted to prompt discussion SA. It isn't discussed much in the cycling community. And, to bring awareness that good SA can prevent accidents. Here are some stats and with good SA, you can reduce your percentages of becoming a statistic:

Statistics again from Bob Mionske (RBR.com, 2007): There are about 500,000 cycling accidents each year and this is how the numbers sum up: 59% involve no object or other person, 14% involve a fixed object, 11% involve a moving motor vehicle, 9% involve another bicycle, 3% involve an animal, 3% involve a pedestrian, 1% involve a stationary motor vehicle, 1% other. Accidents involving a moving motor vehicle (11%): 45% in an intersection, 25% entering a roadway, 14% riding with flow of traffic, 8% riding against traffic, 9% other.

Take care.
SA means being aware that not all cycling accidents have the same severity effects on the involved cyclists. SA means being aware that one situation of collision with a motor vehicle resulting in catastrophic injuries outweighs 999 situations of skinned knees from falling off a bike on the playground. SA also means being aware that a low number of cycling accidents occurring in a certain situation (such as while cycling in the left lane of high speed highways) does not mean that situation/location is a good location for cycling safety.

And drawing any kind of conclusion about cycling safety/risk situations from raw, incomplete data without serious analysis is being Situationally Obtuse.

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 11-21-08 at 07:11 AM.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 07:20 AM
  #41  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,978

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,538 Times in 1,047 Posts
Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
I'm not going to try to equate motorcycling with bicycling, but I have found what you said to bear true in motorcycling. I wear ear plugs under my helmet. They attenuate the wind noise to the point I feel like it helps me hear other noises.
I prefer to not hear road/wind noise when cycling, I prefer to listen to music or audio books. I have no problem hearing what I need to hear for SA while listening to preferred sounds from my mp3 player.

I can also safely chew gum and drink beverages while cycling too. Sometimes I might even whistle a happy tune while maintaining sufficient awareness of my "situation."
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 07:24 AM
  #42  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,978

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,538 Times in 1,047 Posts
Originally Posted by caelric
I survived two tours in Iraq, out in Fallujah, Najaf, and Ramadi, on patrols and such. I have pretty good situational awareness, of all kinds of things. I wouldn't have gone out on patrol with an iPod in my ears, and I won't ride a bike with them either.
I survived numerous dangerous situations of standing in my bathtub while taking a shower. I wouldn't wear an mp3 player in the shower, but I do wear an mp3 player while cycling.

Situational Awareness is my rationale. SA helps me recognize the difference in the situations.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 07:43 AM
  #43  
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times in 3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
SA means being aware that not all cycling accidents have the same severity effects on the involved cyclists. SA means being aware that one situation of collision with a motor vehicle resulting in catastrophic injuries outweighs 999 situations of skinned knees from falling off a bike on the playground. SA also means being aware that a low number of cycling accidents occurring in a certain situation (such as while cycling in the left lane of high speed highways) does not mean that situation/location is a good location for cycling safety.

And drawing any kind of conclusion about cycling safety/risk situations from raw, incomplete data without serious analysis is being Situationally Obtuse.
+100... but try to convince folks that their "statistics" are really false, and based on poor cross section analysis.
genec is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 07:47 AM
  #44  
For The Fun of It
 
Paul Barnard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Posts: 5,852

Bikes: Lynskey GR300, Lynskey Backroad, Litespeed T6, Lynskey MT29, Burley Duet

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2135 Post(s)
Liked 1,647 Times in 829 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I survived numerous dangerous situations of standing in my bathtub while taking a shower. I wouldn't wear an mp3 player in the shower, but I do wear an mp3 player while cycling.

Situational Awareness is my rationale. SA helps me recognize the difference in the situations.
A component of SA is using/doing what works for YOU.
Paul Barnard is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 08:16 AM
  #45  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,978

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,538 Times in 1,047 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
+100... but try to convince folks that their "statistics" are really false, and based on poor cross section analysis.
The statistics may not be false, but drawing unwarranted conclusions, not supported by the available data, may give a false view of the actual situation. And acting on claims/conclusions about the relative safety of various situations as good SA, when the SA is based on inadequate raw statistics is definitely foolish.

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 11-21-08 at 08:21 AM.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 08:17 AM
  #46  
uke
it's easy if you let it.
 
uke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: indoors and out.
Posts: 4,124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by uke
It's correct for me. Your mileage may vary.
Originally Posted by Allister
That's ok. Not everyone is up to the challenge of learning how to do it.
Originally Posted by uke
It's correct for me. Your mileage may vary.
...
uke is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 08:21 AM
  #47  
Senior Member
 
gcottay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Green Valley AZ
Posts: 3,770

Bikes: Trice Q; Volae Century; TT 3.4

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
A combination of an experience base to know what is safe and alertness to aberrations which represent threat.

On an early morning ride down a wide, smooth, almost deserted MUP, an alert rider would notice a human on the grass on one side of the path and a dog on the other. An experienced rider would look carefully for a long lease connecting the two animals.
gcottay is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 08:59 AM
  #48  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 1,051

Bikes: Specialized Allez (2007)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Yes, it's a buzzword. But it's true, it does help to keep your mind on what you are doing, on busy roads, or in a city where there's a lot going on around you. Keep looking about at junctions, look where there's a driveway opening onto the road, stuff like that. Or on quiet roads when you are bowling along at 28 mph in a tightly packed chaingang!

About headphones, I rarely use them now because the do reduce the amount I hear, especially in a city with lots of cars whizzing past. In the dark I never use them. Only in the day on boring rides on my own (and there's very few rides I find boring!). But keep it in perspective, people. Cycling is not a wildly dangerous activity, certainly compared to walking, and nobody has told walkers not to wear headphones. Pedestrians get hit by cars too.
Basil Moss is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 11:09 AM
  #49  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,820
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked 133 Times in 91 Posts
Originally Posted by healtheeliving
Curious as to how cyclists would define "situational awareness."
Controlled paranoia. Assume that every car that you encounter wants to kill you and prepare a plan so that the driv r will be unable to carry out his plan. For example, if a car is coming towards you in oncoming traffic, assume that it will turn left in front of you at the last possible moment. Have a plan in mind for going behind the car, in front of the car, or braking, depending on the situation. And your attention should be well up the road. Look ahead and prepare for what is coming, not for where you are now. You should already have that figured out. If things are happening too fast, then pull over and take a break. You can't risk innattention.

This means taking a car's signals as suggestions and not firm rules. Always be ready for the left signalling car going in the same direction as you to suddenly turn to the right instead.

A couple of guides. Intersections are the most dangerous places, so as you approach an intersection take the lane, no exceptions, leaving a car room will only encourage them to pass you or turn right in front of you at an intersectio, both of which are very dangerous.

Do not let a car get next to you. Get in front of the car or in back of it, but next to the car it can turn or push you off the road.
__________________
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace

1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
San Rensho is offline  
Old 11-21-08, 11:20 AM
  #50  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,978

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,538 Times in 1,047 Posts
Originally Posted by San Rensho
Controlled paranoia. Assume that every car that you encounter wants to kill you and prepare a plan so that the driv r will be unable to carry out his plan.
You must be a barrel of laughs on a crowded subway car.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.