My Red Light Running Tutorial Vid got reviewd in Boston.
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 1,998
Bikes: Univega Gran Turismo, Guerciotti, Bridgestone MB2, Bike Friday New World Tourist, Serotta Ti
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
By the way, the two most successful big city cycling cultures, in Amsterdam and Copenhagen, sort of represent the two different philosophies to some extent. Copenhagen is all rule-based formal system solutions, whereas Amsterdam relies much more on the ubiquitous cycling culture.
Speedo
#52
L T X B O M P F A N S R
you think peds don't mind getting buzzed by bicyclists when they have the right of way in a crosswalk? (his video of a street festival in his town really showed some close pass clips of peds in the crosswalks..
joey's such a BA for riding that one lane, one way street in the french quarter like it's midtown.
I'm STILL waiting for some vids from joey riding six lane, exurban 50mph arterials and his red light running skills there....
joey's such a BA for riding that one lane, one way street in the french quarter like it's midtown.
I'm STILL waiting for some vids from joey riding six lane, exurban 50mph arterials and his red light running skills there....
And why are you trying to puff him up like he's some kind of wannabe badass? He's never made such claims. That's all in your head, not in anything that he's written.
#53
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 154
Bikes: Trek 800 MTB, Ross Shark
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
That was a really good video. I try to ride the same way and hit the gaps when I see them. The problem is, a lot of drivers are overly cautious and will slow down when they see a speeding bicyclist approaching an intersection, even if the driver has the light. This really throws off my timing because the gap I planned to hit is contingent upon the drivers maintaining their current speed. I'm still learning how to make those quick adjustments. That football QB analogy you used is a very good one. Eventually you learn to read traffic like opposing defenses.
#54
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 1,998
Bikes: Univega Gran Turismo, Guerciotti, Bridgestone MB2, Bike Friday New World Tourist, Serotta Ti
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Speedo
#55
Harsh Generation
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lake City, FL
Posts: 178
Bikes: GMC Yukon XL
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#56
L T X B O M P F A N S R
#57
L T X B O M P F A N S R
#58
Mostly Harmless
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 216
Bikes: Custom commuter made from Civia Prospect frame, Raleigh Sports (1971), custom road bike from a steel 2003 Fuji Marseille frame, 29er SS MTB built up from a Vassago Jabberwocky frame, Surly Long Haul Trucker (customzed for fully loaded touring)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I've never been to Copenhagen, but I have been to Amsterdam. Amsterdam is pretty structured. Cycling in the Netherlands is pretty structured. I was never in doubt as to what the rules were, and (in what was a limited experience there) it seemed like everyone followed the rules.
Last edited by yoder; 04-20-09 at 02:02 PM.
#59
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 1,998
Bikes: Univega Gran Turismo, Guerciotti, Bridgestone MB2, Bike Friday New World Tourist, Serotta Ti
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#60
L T X B O M P F A N S R
#61
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 1,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Not a very good example (not much traffic), but i'm sure theres other videos i don't know about.
EDIT: starting 5:20 or so in https://www.vimeo.com/1979877 ?
Last edited by degnaw; 04-20-09 at 01:06 PM.
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 1,998
Bikes: Univega Gran Turismo, Guerciotti, Bridgestone MB2, Bike Friday New World Tourist, Serotta Ti
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,779
Bikes: Leader 735TR 09 58cm 46/17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Some people actually can run a red without causing problems for anyone, if you find that so hard tto do stick to your own advice i guess, fine with me.
#64
20+mph Commuter
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Greenville. SC USA
Posts: 7,517
Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1434 Post(s)
Liked 331 Times
in
219 Posts
The nature of my camera lens is pretty much 1:1 - meaning it is not a wide angle. What gives your eyes a sense of speed is your peripheral vision. My camera has no peripheral vision. To demonstrate this, ride in the passenger seat of a car and look through the windshield with a pair of binoculars at the horizon. Even a 70 miles per hour it will appear that you are walking down the freeway. My camera has the same illusion. At regular speed, it looks like I am walking.
When I am splitting lanes or riding the double yellow my speed is probably 15 mph. Open stretches up to 25. I try to never ride faster than my stopping capability.
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
No? Have you seen THIS?
#67
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Actually, rules aren't always as helpful as we think:
https://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html
https://www.spiegel.de/international/...448747,00.html
Although, I've spent some time in Mumbai, and that is chaos. Or, the order is a higher level than I can see when in its midst. But sometimes anarchy can lead to a calm order. ("Anarchy" is not synonymous with chaos or lack of order, although sometimes it is incorrectly used that way).
By the way, the two most successful big city cycling cultures, in Amsterdam and Copenhagen, sort of represent the two different philosophies to some extent. Copenhagen is all rule-based formal system solutions, whereas Amsterdam relies much more on the ubiquitous cycling culture. Pro-biking planning committees from America will find more from the Copenhagen model that can be implemented top-down. This recently happened with a group from Portland that visited both places I noticed.
Here's a video of a woman from Copenhagen riding around Amsterdam with a guy from Amsterdam as they discuss the difference in cycling in the two cities. Notice at the end she expresses amazement that Amsterdam works for cycling without the lights regulating it. Also, you see how they ride with the pedestrians, whereas in Copenhagen pedestrians and bikes are kept much more separated.
https://vimeo.com/1436751?pg=embed&sec=1436751
https://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html
https://www.spiegel.de/international/...448747,00.html
Although, I've spent some time in Mumbai, and that is chaos. Or, the order is a higher level than I can see when in its midst. But sometimes anarchy can lead to a calm order. ("Anarchy" is not synonymous with chaos or lack of order, although sometimes it is incorrectly used that way).
By the way, the two most successful big city cycling cultures, in Amsterdam and Copenhagen, sort of represent the two different philosophies to some extent. Copenhagen is all rule-based formal system solutions, whereas Amsterdam relies much more on the ubiquitous cycling culture. Pro-biking planning committees from America will find more from the Copenhagen model that can be implemented top-down. This recently happened with a group from Portland that visited both places I noticed.
Here's a video of a woman from Copenhagen riding around Amsterdam with a guy from Amsterdam as they discuss the difference in cycling in the two cities. Notice at the end she expresses amazement that Amsterdam works for cycling without the lights regulating it. Also, you see how they ride with the pedestrians, whereas in Copenhagen pedestrians and bikes are kept much more separated.
https://vimeo.com/1436751?pg=embed&sec=1436751
The bikes everywhere... What can I say.
#68
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Fallbrook, CA.
Posts: 1,109
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#69
L T X B O M P F A N S R
But if I come up to a red light, and I can see that there are no cars that might hit me if I run it, then there is literally no danger, and it is totally safe. How can it be unsafe when there's nothing in my way, and I'm not in the way of anything else?
Arguing against running red lights because it is necessarily unsafe in all circumstances is am argument you can't win.
#70
Mostly Harmless
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 216
Bikes: Custom commuter made from Civia Prospect frame, Raleigh Sports (1971), custom road bike from a steel 2003 Fuji Marseille frame, 29er SS MTB built up from a Vassago Jabberwocky frame, Surly Long Haul Trucker (customzed for fully loaded touring)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
... at one point Marie is on a path and just rides right out in front of a stopped car... something one would hesitate to do in the US. Yet there, there was no problem, there was no sense of "who has ROW." I did not notice a stop sign... so apparently the motorist chose to stop for the bike path. Certainly Marie and the other guy had no hesitation about just riding on past the stopped car. Amazing.
As the traffic culture becomes too rule-focused, it will lead to its people being less aware of their surrounding more often. The safest places for cyclists are where there are lots of cyclists, and the car drivers are also cyclists. Humans (and technology) will not ever be completely predictable or aware, so a culture where that is basically understood as an axiom, rather than having some illusion of a safe order through rule-following, leads to the safest, if not most efficient/fastest, traffic system.
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 1,998
Bikes: Univega Gran Turismo, Guerciotti, Bridgestone MB2, Bike Friday New World Tourist, Serotta Ti
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I see it as a matter of attitude, perhaps a matter of philosophy. People probably have attitudes about this that are on a continuum from "I always follow the letter of the rules of the road" to "I do what I think is best for me at the moment, the hell with the rules of the road". By "people" I mean everyone using the road from pedestrians to 18 wheel truck drivers. Is it practical to expect that every road user will, by some miracle, move to the "I always follow the letter of the rules of the road" camp? No, because there are cases like the 3:00 AM ghost town. People are going to find their own place in this continuum. My point is that it would be better for everyone, if we were all huddling down near the law and order end.
The point of following the rules of the road is that some of the risks based on flawed observations and judgment are removed. It works because there is an agreement with other road users that we will all follow the same rules. Consequently, there is less left to chance. Less left to a judgment call, that may be flawed which is based on an observation, that may also be flawed.
The problem I have with people at the narcissistic "I do what I think is best for me at the moment, the hell with the rules of the road" end of the spectrum is that it's a slippery slope. Someone like JoeyBike, by his own admission, is all in favor of seeing everyone else follow the rules. It's unfortunate but he seems intent on encouraging others to ride in a similar scofflaw manner. The more people who do, the less anyone can rely on the the protections provided by the rules. It's a slippery slope from another point of view as well. For every JoeyBike, there are probably ten JoeyCars. If we collectively agree that rules of the road are merely suggestions for bicycles, should we be surprised when the JoeyCars see the rules of the road are only suggestions for themselves? There's probably a similar debate to this one going on in a parallel universe at a car site. We as cyclists get far more protection against cars from the rules of the road, then cars get protection from us.
I harbor no illusion that the JoeyBikes (and JoeyCars) of the world will ever change their ways. I just hope that a greater collective of vehicle drivers will recognize the protections afforded by the rules of the road, and keep their departures from them to a minimum.
Speedo
#72
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,276
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4259 Post(s)
Liked 1,361 Times
in
943 Posts
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by apricissimus
But bikes and cars are very different things. It doesn't make sense to have one set of rules for both.
I suppose bicyclists should be required to get driver's licenses, just like other operators?
Anyway, Joey is not advocating that there should have one set of rules for both. Clearly, he's advocating quite the opposite!
=======================
=======================
Rules are for other people! This seems inconsistant with the idea that to "allow traffic in general to do whatever they want".
=======================
Yes. A major point of the traffic rules is to provide predictability of behavior for the participants. From the driver's perspective, Joey's behavior is irratic and unpredictable.
=======================
Actually, rules aren't always as helpful as we think:
https://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html
https://www.spiegel.de/international/...448747,00.html
https://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html
https://www.spiegel.de/international/...448747,00.html
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-21-09 at 11:41 AM.
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Orange Park, Florida
Posts: 846
Bikes: jamis xenith comp '08, trek 750 hybrid (w/drops) c.1995, centurian fixie, kona cindercone mtb c.2000
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
As a point of reference... I live in Fl, which is one of if not the most inhospitable places in the union to ride. Here we have an optional helmet law for motorcycles, I'm not doing the research, but I do believe that the number of deaths have been on the rise since this has gone into affect.
Most of these were likely already "organ donors" to begin with, who drive their loud motorcycles weaving in and out of traffic like arrogant Aholes anyway. Thusly its their own fault, except for the woman who drove her corvette over her husband at a light. All the same, I do believe that it is against state law to share the lane with a car.
Bare with me there is a point... When I went to college in Ohio I noticed that the motorcycles often traveled in between lanes and were never stopped by police. Are there places where this is acceptable and if so what makes that any different from what joeybike and others of us are doing?
The way I see it, a bicycle is far less likely to do anyone else any harm, didn't that Hasselbeck lady from the view just get hit by a messenger? Isn't she pregnant? and isn't she fine and even joking about the speed of the delivery? However an car, truck or motorcycle has far more mass and is cappable of doing far more damage to others.
If I run a light and didn't see the car that hit me, it is my fault, not their's. And in j'ville it seems that no matter the circumstances a driver is never prosecuted for a bicycle related injury or death.
It is ultimately a matter of riding within your own limitations and with a consideration for your surroundings. For example there are a few lights in my hood that I will not roll through or run. They cross 6 and 4 lane roads with a 45 mph speed limit so I just wait and hope that a car comes along to trip the light or I turn with the next cycle. Stop signs on side streets, however, are another story.
True all the same, such behavior is missunderstood by many people. I didn't understand how the messengers did it all the time (and I'm not sure they have analized it like joey has), but now I understand. I also understand that it doesn't do much for our image if we don't expain our behavior to others.
But many are closed minded and will never accept any explanation, no matter how clear.
Most of these were likely already "organ donors" to begin with, who drive their loud motorcycles weaving in and out of traffic like arrogant Aholes anyway. Thusly its their own fault, except for the woman who drove her corvette over her husband at a light. All the same, I do believe that it is against state law to share the lane with a car.
Bare with me there is a point... When I went to college in Ohio I noticed that the motorcycles often traveled in between lanes and were never stopped by police. Are there places where this is acceptable and if so what makes that any different from what joeybike and others of us are doing?
The way I see it, a bicycle is far less likely to do anyone else any harm, didn't that Hasselbeck lady from the view just get hit by a messenger? Isn't she pregnant? and isn't she fine and even joking about the speed of the delivery? However an car, truck or motorcycle has far more mass and is cappable of doing far more damage to others.
If I run a light and didn't see the car that hit me, it is my fault, not their's. And in j'ville it seems that no matter the circumstances a driver is never prosecuted for a bicycle related injury or death.
It is ultimately a matter of riding within your own limitations and with a consideration for your surroundings. For example there are a few lights in my hood that I will not roll through or run. They cross 6 and 4 lane roads with a 45 mph speed limit so I just wait and hope that a car comes along to trip the light or I turn with the next cycle. Stop signs on side streets, however, are another story.
True all the same, such behavior is missunderstood by many people. I didn't understand how the messengers did it all the time (and I'm not sure they have analized it like joey has), but now I understand. I also understand that it doesn't do much for our image if we don't expain our behavior to others.
But many are closed minded and will never accept any explanation, no matter how clear.
#74
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
@Speedo: we get more protection from cars because we are more vulnerable. I'm not saying that it is right to jump lights, but as has been said we pose much less danger to any other road user. The only problem would come from accidents caused by cyclists jumping red lights and mistiming it and causing a driver to swerve into another car. The laws are there to prevent things like this happening.
So on one hand I know I jump red lights on left turns (am in UK) and at pedestrian lights but only because I know I have looked and made sure nothing / no one is coming so I won't cause an accident. But on the other hand I worry about the cyclists out there that don't look / think about the consequences of their actions. Then again there are car drivers out there like that too, and there will always be people like that. The aim is to keep yourself and other road users safe and if it is safe to jump a light then that is fine by me.
So on one hand I know I jump red lights on left turns (am in UK) and at pedestrian lights but only because I know I have looked and made sure nothing / no one is coming so I won't cause an accident. But on the other hand I worry about the cyclists out there that don't look / think about the consequences of their actions. Then again there are car drivers out there like that too, and there will always be people like that. The aim is to keep yourself and other road users safe and if it is safe to jump a light then that is fine by me.
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Fallbrook, CA.
Posts: 1,109
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
False dichotomy!! It clearly isn't one or the other! There are ample examples where bicycles are treated differently (without even considering bike lanes).
I suppose bicyclists should be required to get driver's licenses, just like other operators?
Anyway, Joey is not advocating that there should have one set of rules for both. Clearly, he's advocating quite the opposite![/b]
I suppose bicyclists should be required to get driver's licenses, just like other operators?
Anyway, Joey is not advocating that there should have one set of rules for both. Clearly, he's advocating quite the opposite![/b]
Mind you, everything that falls under "vehicle" has a very basic set of rules of direction of traffic flow and following traffic flow infrastructure (signs/lights), for some reason people want bicycles to be the only ones that fall under "don't have to follow the rest of the world... because it's an inconvenience."