Seattle Forrest

I'm hoping there won't be a next time, but, still, I've got a few questions.

Yesterday I took my cross bike into the mountains and did 30 slow miles on a dirt and gravel trail. At the very end, there were two people in climbing harnesses standing at the bottom of a cliff, with a dog sitting by their side. I slowed from about 7 to about 4 mph, and gave as wide a berth as the trail allowed, which wasn't much. The (unleashed) dog jumped at me from the left; I hit the brakes hard, swerved right, and wasn't able to balance thanks to the gravel. I went down. The dog landed where I would have been if I hadn't reacted.

Today, my neck is very sore. I unclipped in time to land on my knee and arm, and not get hit by the bike. The dog didn't attack while I was down. Its people apologized and swore it was a friendly dog; a grumpy one might have barked, but would have kept its distance. I didn't feel too sore immediately, and had been on the trail longer than I'd planned, so I left, and that was that.

If I'd turned at the dog and hit it with the front of my wheel when it jumped at me, I probably wouldn't have hit the ground. But how would that likely play out? Would that be legal, as self defense? Civil liability? Would it matter, if the only people for a few miles in any direction were its two owners, and your correspondent? And on the other hand, would my word against theirs prevent me from suing, if I'd been injured? I'm not going to start dismounting and walking by every dog I see in the future, and I didn't have any reason to suspect this one until it pounced.

ianbrettcooper

Why do people insist that their dog, who has just assaulted someone, is 'friendly'? I guess it's wishful thinking.

I've always had speed on my side when I've had this problem. Best thing to do, I reckon, is to get some hard thing (like the bike, a frame pump, a D lock) between your body and the dog. I suspect dogs are reacting instinctively to seeing your legs appear to be running - they think you're running from them so they go into chase mode. Either that or they're sent crazy by the spinning wheels. Not sure I'd like to test which theory is right.

Roody

I don't think you're criminally or civilly liable if you're doing something reasonable (such as turning your wheel on the dog) to prevent an injury to yourself. The laws or regulations in effect on the trail most likely require people to leash and/or control their dogs. As for whose word would be believed--the answer is most likely yours, especially if you have an injury. You are most likely to be believed if you remain calm, and if you can provide clear details in a logical manner.

unterhausen

I can't imagine you would hurt the dog at that speed. I've seen a dog hit by a car at 60mph and get up and run away. Of course, that was pretty unlikely example, but dogs are robust creatures.

prathmann

Agreed. I hit a small labrador broadside when it ran out into the street in front of me. Crumpled the top and down tubes of my 531 frame, but the dog jumped right up and the owners said it was fine after a few minutes. Their home owners insurance did buy me a new bike. (And my road rash sure took longer to heal than the dog.)

Seattle Forrest

I grew up around dogs, and I'm pretty sure there was no malice on the pooch's part. The people probably did know it as friendly, and it may have been intending to say hi. When I was younger, I had a basset hound, who didn't like strangers. He would have sat on the far end of the trail, and given a cyclist the evil eye, but he wouldn't have lunged at it. Or done anything unpredictable like that. I can understand what they meant when they said that ... on the other hand, it's kind of insulting to hear that the dog that just took you off your bike is a good dog.

Since it came at me sideways ( at something like a 45 degree angle ), I guess I made a split-second choice to avoid it instead of hitting it, and I went down as a result. Which saved the dog. It also meant I didn't get pushed over from the side, and crashed at about 0 instead of about 4 ... which I'm sure hurts a little less.

I think the way I landed on my arm jarred my neck a bit. I'll probably be sore for a few days and miss riding the bike, but I don't think there's any lasting damage. But the experience has me thinking I don't want to go down to protect a dog that's attacking me, if this ever comes up again. 99 % of my riding is on city streets, though, so if this had happened the day before, it would have hurt a lot more.

Bekologist

i would have got up, kicked the dog, and lambasted the pet owners.

i've used pepper spray on a loose dog menacing bicyclists on the B-G before. no remorse, and i suspect the dog no longer harasses bicyclists along that stretch of trail.

SCROUDS

I was thinking of outfitting my bike with a steel baton. They also have pointy tips you can place on the back of the baton for breaking glass. Not that I recommend popping out the windows of cars that pass you too closely

Seattle Forrest

I thought about that, in terms of what I might have done differently. In this case, it was a dog that looked like it was probably leashed, sitting a couple feet from its people. It looked friendly enough, and didn't give any indication until it jumped at me. Just like a spider sitting perfectly still on its web until it catches something, then flying into action. So, even if I'd had pepper spray with me, I wouldn't have had it out and ready.

electrik

Unless you know the dog owners and they'll admit to it or there are witnesses your case is very weak. Particularly because you admit to trying to avoid the dog and crashing not because of physical contact with the dog but the gravel and etc... just saying. If you still plan to sue, get your injuries documented.

Next time, lie on the ground - despite it being embarrassing - and wait to see what happens and how you feel. If there is a small pain you can count on it being twice as worse once the adrenaline wears off. No need to rush up and runaway from the accident, it's already happened.

If you are injured, get some identification... carrying a camera is good for photographing a driver's license/owner and the dog.

Seattle Forrest

^ I agree, that my case would be weak if I wanted to sue. I don't. I gave the people a get out of jail free card, and in hindsight I probably should have yelled at them a little bit more before doing so. Hopefully they feel a bit guilty after the fact, for allowing their "friendly" dog to take someone down. But they probably don't.

If I thought I'd broken something, though, I'd want to sue. Since I woke up early this morning thanks to being really sore, I've had a bit of time to think about the incident, and that brought up some "what if things had been slightly different" questions.

Sounds like what I should have done was turn into the dog. That probably would have surprised it, hurt the dog enough that it wouldn't jump people in the future, and it would have given me a much, much better chance of staying on the bike. And it sounds like that's probably not illegal, in response to being jumped by an animal.

I didn't think to see if there derailleur is ok, having come down on the drive side... I'll have to check that tonight.

crhilton

Because what that dog did probably was friendly. Had it been unfriendly the op might be dead or maimed. Why people think "friendly" makes it okay is beyond me. Probably because for everything but bicycling and roller blading there's likely no harm from a dog jumping up (aside from minor allergy issues, or a little panic). But for bicyclists and skaters, who don't have lots of extra balance to go around, a dog jumping up can be kind of ugly.

crhilton

Or it's now violent when it does. Kicking the dog doesn't solve anything. And the pepper spray stuff is to ward off an already dangerous dog before it can hurt you, not to turn a nice dog into a mean one.

electrik

It's a dumb dog that chases after stuff that kicks it and sprays pepper spray on it. Kicking the dog away and spraying are two violent means which can immediately end an attack.

ianbrettcooper

Also, a dog jumping up is often a show of friendly dominance. Sure, the human is not likely to send any signals to put such a dog straight into aggressive mode, but still, people (especially owners) are too willing to think an act of dominance is 'cute' and a sign of pure happiness and friendship when it really isn't that simple. Humans misinterpret animal signals because we have a tendency to treat animals like people, so we equate jumping up with a hug. It always amazes me when people get bitten after a dog has warned them with its every movement that it wants nothing to do with them. Not that that's the case here.

kh6idf

I used to have a basset hound too.

Seattle Forrest

I miss Gino. ( That was in the back yard, where he wouldn't be able to catch anybody off guard. )

Rollfast

You had a wonderful dog.

As I've told you before, dog are only jealous because they can't ride their own or with you.

Those clickety clack deraileurs and the freewheel don't help.

You freaked out and didn't have to go down like that. It's not a combat manuever.

Make friends with the dog by maintaining the dominant contact and don't talk down. Dogs are curious and sometimes the owners don't seem to have an idea about this. They should realize it's not a child but a domesticated animal with ancient instincts. In the case of dogs, you may recall that studies suggest man chose the most docile wild dogs and bred them until they resembled today's pets. That means they are trying to establish if you are a threat to their territory and their master (masters are alphas).

Leaving them emotionally disarmed may solve a lot of your troubles. If they're going to attack they certainly will and that will happen but if you acquaint yourself and relax, you will establish yourself as dominant most of the time. If not, use your bike as a shield and stand it down. If it looks ill try to convince it to leave and call the authorities. You can make a bigger roar they they can and it will draw others nearby as well.

As a rule I rarely lose control and I don'r like talking down to dogs.

Cougars, bears, coyotes would prefer to do their thing without you. Get away calmly if you can, note these things earlier, always scan your area.

Bekologist

I'm sorry, i misunderstood the scenario. i wouldn't have kicked the dog, i would have kicked myself, not used pepper spray, but still lambasted the owners.

yes, the climbers with their dogs out on the iron horse around exit 38 are quite tedious at times for bicyclists.

sudo bike

Not knowing the specifics it sounds like it may not have helped in this case, but I second the carry pepper spray suggestion.

A few weeks ago I had a loose pit bull come after me (had a collar, so I assume not a stray). I jumped on the AirZound first (works about 75% of the time, I always do this first if I feel I have time), but the dog ignored it. Out came the pepper spray. One good shot and the dog stopped dead sneezing away. In cases like this, I like to think that maybe owners will be a little more careful when they see the state the dog is in... maybe just wishful thinking, though. I didn't stick around to see if the owners were nearby... it wasn't a fantastic part of town.

At any rate, when it comes to dogs, I'm not about to wait to see if it's friendly. One warning blast of the AirZound, and that's all you get. I don't really care if it teaches them a lesson or not. If I'm being rushed, dog or human is going to get it.

As far as mounting it, I find it's most convenient to either clip on the shirt, or velcro to the steering tube or top tube. Someplace you can access it quickly.

Not knowing exactly how everything was situated, the only thing I can recommend is that when I am approaching a situation like this where I can't reasonably easily change routes, and am leery of a possible problem, I pull the pepper spray out and hold it ready in my hand until I pass. If I really think there will be a problem, I'll turn around. If I just think it's kind of a possibility, and it's not convenient to find another way, I just do that. YMMV. May not have been prudent here.

crhilton

The vast majority of dogs who jump up don't ever bite. You're probably right that we misinterpret the signals, we do that with lots of animals.

I've never equated jumping up with a hug. It seems to be a playful attitude from most dogs. Probably does stem from a dominance play as a puppy that never gets righted.

Booger1

I'm glad your OK,dog attacks/mishaps can do REAL serious damage,or worse.

I try to keep from commenting on dog issues,it's too emmotional for me,but every once in a while,I will chime in.

I love animals,dogs,cats birds,whatever,but if the dog is out running around the streets,or you have it on a 10ft leash,it's fair game.There are no excuses!You either have control of it or you don't!There's no middle ground.

If a dog chases me in public,I will be the LAST thing it ever chases.I don't carry pepper spray,I carry Buck.

If anybody wants to see REALLY graffic pictures of what a dog can do to a human,let me know,I think you'll change your mind about "friendly" dogs.

rumrunn6

just kill it next time & say: "oops, sorry"

electrik

Haha, turn the table on those owners.

dedhed

[QUOTE=crhilton;11462286]The vast majority of dogs who jump up don't ever bite. You're probably right that we misinterpret the signals, we do that with lots of animals.

Yeah, it's the minority that is gonna make your life miserable - just like people. I personally don't wait to find out if a dog is friendly. If the dog is incoming, I'm going into attack & defend mode. Shoot first, ask questions later, saves a lot of pain on your part. Regarding legality, I don't know that the dog has any legal "rights" despite what PETA says. It'll certainly have a hard time testifying against you unless Dr. Dolittle is on the jury. I myself never understood the reason for bringing your dog to the crag - it's not like it's gonna climb, Just sit there all day getting bored and looking for a Mt biker to come by and relieve some of his boredom.