Jolly Green

I'm glad to see a thread discussing women and cycling. If you are a man wanting to know why your wife worries so much about make-up, to the detriment of actually enjoying life, this is why. Women are expected to be pretty. Women are expected not to smell, not to sweat, not to be strong. I'm not saying that all men always feel this way or say these things. I am saying that as a society we keep women from gaining too much power by holding them to higher standards of personal grooming. Now, I'm pretty lucky in this regard. I work in a warehouse, for people that actively support bike commuting, in a community where biking and cargo bikes are common. Nobody cares that I show up for work sweaty, or that I don't wear make-up (or deodorant).

Women on a bike are active, not passive. That can be threatening to a society that prefers women to be passive and men to be active. It is hard work not to internalize society's expectations of you, for women and for men. I want more women on bikes, and I want the feminist community to pay more attention to cycling as a potential improvement in the lives of women, in particular poor women. However, I'm not going to judge women who don't make same decisions I make. It is hard to fight a lifetime of societal norms. I don't speak for all women, but I can say that I could not care less about fashion for biking or appearing attractive to men while riding a bike. I just want to get to work alive Any man who thinks I'm too fat to be riding a bike or wearing what I'm wearing can STFU.

ETA: I will work for Pineapple. I feel that bribing with fruit is an excellent way to change behavior. Keep up the good work, Antaresia

BarracksSi

Apart from the STFU, this sounds like it was lifted from a hundred years ago. It's even been said that women riding bikes, and the personal freedoms they enjoyed because of it, fed the suffrage movement.
https://www.annielondonderry.com/womenWheels.html

As for the rest of what you said -- women are expected to be pretty, to not smell or sweat, etc -- I wonder how much of that can be attributed to/blamed on men, and how much can be attributed to/blamed on other women. Maybe it's just the guys I know, but they don't mind it when women don't smell like flowers or can pick up their own luggage.

buzzman

+1. Agreed. As a male, who has encouraged and supported so many female cyclists in my life, I resent the implication that because I'm male I'm pushing women to be weak, wear clothes that inhibits physical activity etc... There are just as many women who've bought into that notion as men so I appreciate Jolly Green's suggestion that it's societal because it's not as gender specific as it appears on the surface.

Berta

I am sure it happens that a lot of women feel out of joint if their hair and makeup aren't to their own specs. That's their choice and there's nothing wrong with it. But there are just too many of us who ride and do other physical things because we need/want to, and get by very well in life while doing it in public, for those who choose not to ride based on high maintenance and restrictive so-called appearance-enhancing things to say they "can't" because of societal expectations. I think that is a bit on the silly side these days (especially with the constant media bombardment of health risks and tips!). That attitude was headed out of vogue in the 70's and I don't know what happened to that. But I refuse to blame any backsliding to adhering to stricter gender roles, at least in dress, and any pressure I might feel to particpate in them as a woman all on the men.

Chincitop

As a bicycle commuter, I do agree in some senses on the fashion thing, but am lucky because my job provides lockers, so I keep baby wipes, hair spray, a brush, some makeup, and some hair pins & things in there, and always try to arrive at work a half an hour before hand, so I can fix up what needs fixing, and change into work clothes and cool down. My ride is about 9 miles, which isn't bad, but in this heat, for someone who's just starting, I do a pretty good job at sweating, and have been rocking a ponytail lately, though I am lucky to work somewhere that it's acceptable to wear a neat ponytail to work, especially if I put some makeup on, or do something special with it (I'm a pharmacy technician at a retail pharmacy)

So, yes, it is doable, and I think it's really rewarding, but I definitely have an easier time convincing my non cycling male friends to go out with me than my non cycling female friends. It is very strange.
Us female cyclists are awesome though, and quite honestly, not much makes me feel sexier than the slight soreness after a long ride.

buzzman

My wife does the hair/clothes transition after her 8 mile ride into work and when I've met her mid-day for lunch I'm always amazed at how put together she looks. I, on the other hand, spend the day looking like I just stepped out of a wind tunnel. If you're creative and take a little time it's possible to ride and look professional/fashionable as well.

Among my male friends women who ride bikes (or are athletic at all) have always been the most admired. The long term relationship "test" was will she go for a bike ride and will she go camping. My wife scored 2 out of 2 and "awesome" ls definitely the word for bike riding women.

genec

LOL same "test" for my wife... she geared up for it by bike commuting to work, some 20+ miles either way, and then we bike toured CA from SF to SD... We've been together 27 years now.

BTW since this thread is primarily about women... I'm not quite sure what her test for me was... All I know is that I can cook and while we were dating, I prepared several meals, including crepes (the latter for breakfast... she still gets crepes on special occasions).

crhilton

Ditto.

BarracksSi

That's what she said!

sunstorm

hmmm.....I do bike commute a couple days a week. I have dragged my roommate and another best friend (both women) into riding, and my husband.

I can tell you what I find unappealing about biking.

I have shoulder length thick hair. In 100F weather, even a half mile is eneough to have my scalp drenched. To actually blow dry my hair is a 35 minutes minimum process. I'd love to wear a pixie cut, but 3 cowlicks make that a very unprofessional look for me. Air drying my hair creates a tangled mess that looks greasy. I don't wear any make-up, so that is easier for me. Clothing wise, I work in medicine; scrubs with road dust on them isn't acceptable, so I do have to change clothes. I do not have significant storage space at my work. It's easy to say 'chop the hair, drop the clothes, etc' but there have been several studies that illustrate that women are viewed negatively in the work place when they act in ways that are accepted or even expected of men (I don't have citations on me, and I don't have time to look them up, but the studies were really cool designs.) Like most ambitious individuals, I balance my ambition and what serves me best career wise with my own views and beliefs. One thing no one mentioned....for women where skirts are considered the preferred professional attire, bike can result in a lovely array of bruises, scrapes, and marks on one's legs. One of my lawyer friends gets very upset when she ends up with a bruise while riding (often from vehicles throwing up occasional gravel) because it looks 'unprofessional' in hose and skirt and her body type isn't well suited to pant suits.

I am in my 30's, pretty average looking, a little overweight. I have had guys cut me off intentionally, and get out of their vehicles to hit on me. That is a scary experience. When a van pulls off in such a way that you have to swing really wide in a heavy traffic road to avoid it, you do have the thought 'how far can they reach out to grab someone' as you go past the driver side (if you can even manage to do that.) I have had a guy reach out a car window and hit my shoulder, resulting in me wrecking and needing stiches. I have had guys throw beverages on me. I am in a university town. I think male riders don't get this as much because it's easier for a lot of jerks to confront a smaller woman (regardless of her actual abilities or strength) than a man. I do get some ribbing from my female friends, but it's pretty good natured.

Dealing with other cyclists. I find that mountain bikers are far more encouraging than road bikers. Commuters and tourers vary. I have yet to join any of the group rides in my area because I've heard so many negative experiences. I fear that I couldn't keep up with the group (as a commuter I tend to carry 30+ lbs of gear when I ride...I am not a speedy cyclist by any means.) It's easier to do my own thing than struggle to deal with a group that ride fast bikes that weigh 1/5 of what my bike weighs unloaded, then tell me that weight and styling have no impact on how fast they ride (yeah, uh huh, I may never be as fast as you are, but let's see you set a personal best on a 40lb bike.)

I do worry about breaking down. I've only had one flat, but I leave for my morning commute an hour early just in case. We have mandatory attendance (med school) and missing a class is a huge issue. I realize that there is the same risk with my car, but I can then catch a ride with someone else. Part of the reason I head out so early is so I can get hold of another person if I have to, to get where I have to be.

I do ride for 90% of my grocery shopping and local errands. Most of these rides are 1/2 - 3 miles one way. my commute is 5.5-6miles one way (depending on route.) My husband lives in a different state. For him to ride for groceries would be a 7 miles trip one way...to work isn't even possible (it's an hour drive.) I also find that the lack of places to lock bikes up bothers me. I'd love to slap a latte lock on my bike and think it wouldn't walk away, but I just don't trust that someoen wouldn't find it fun to just damage it for damagements sake (which is something I never experienced in other countries.)

There's no nurturing or kids for me to deal with, but if there were, I'd drop my bike commute days because the nearest day care is a 15 minute drive in the opposit direction. I don't care about fashion (I do care about professionalism.) I do have issues finding a bike that actually fits me (very long legs, very short torso.) I'm not afraid of street riding, but all my female friends are (I'm a very proactive bicyclist in street riding, I like to be visible.) Some of the things they are afraid of don't even involve vehicles: crossing rail road tracks, steep hills where sand and clay silt sit on the road, bad pot holes, blind turns, inability to trigger light changes. Some of this could be changed with experience, but that often means trying to find safer places for them to get that experience, which isn't always easy.

That's just my perspective on this topic. I'd bike commute daily if the temps didn't soar with high humidity (making hair a huge issue), and if I could find a bike that I am really comfortable on (not cnmfortable as in cushy, but comfortable as in frame fits my body.) Add in showers at my destination, or even a locker room, and I'd be willing. My friends wouldn't do it because it's too much of a commitment (time wise) with too many unpleasant issues (dealing with traffic and the after affects.)

MNBikeguy

Today in the Minneapolis StarTribune:
Women Bike More in Minneapolis

buzzman

What a great, informative post.

Dean7

My wife rides nearly every day I'll have you know.

Brontide

There have been studies that show that men who weigh less than their counterparts are paid less as well, so men biking should cause financial disincentives as well, but we still turn out in much higher numbers. Maybe we should change the topic to be "Why do so many men ride bikes?".

idoru2005

That's lame. Can she prove it to you? Have her ride around for two miles and come home. Check to see if she's sooo sweaty and disgusting that she needs to take another shower.

chipcom 

cuz they can't find women

chipcom 

you're obviously not married

I-Like-To-Bike

Are you married? Want to stay that way? Better forget this making your spouse have to "prove it" and "have her" stuff.

Edit: Great minds think alike. Ain't dat right, my Buckeye Buddy?

skye

However, most of what she said relates to why people in general don't ride, as opposed to why her gender doesn't ride more. All of us who commute have experienced harassment of the level she describes (I've had guys pull over, not to hit *on* me, but to just hit me).

The only gender-specific issues she highlighted revolve around appearance: Her hair (and I would bet a good stylist could find her a flattering look somewhere between flowing shoulder length and pixie), and the "bruised-leg theory" of why women don't ride. The latter doesn't hold a lot of water for me either; I have to say, I've been cycling to work daily for over 5 years, including winters, and the only bruises I have gotten on my legs are from sailing.

The final issue is the career-advancement one, and again, I would argue that this is surely not gender-specific. In many organisations, anybody of any gender who rides a bike is automatically a whacknut. (As a side note, it is an incredibly sad statement on the healthcare industry that someone who rides their bike to work would be looked down upon for doing so.)

DnvrFox

Lots and lots and lots of ladies - of all ages and weight - riding around here. And, the most sad thing is that they ride FASTER that I do! I get passed a lot.

I think it is partly because Colorado is the least obese state in the nation, and we have excellent MUPS in which they can ride and they perceive this as safer - at least my wife (age 74) sure does - and my wife does ride, also, but I can still beat her.

Seriously, we have some great lady riders - aerobars and all.

sunstorm

So Skye, when guys pull over to harass you (I'm assuming you are male), are you at all concerned that part of thier intent is to drag you in their vehicle and abduct you, with all the possibiities that might occur with that? I may be naive, but in 1998 one of my high school friends was ***** and murdered on a bike commute from college classes to her job. It was a 'rural' road and the guy parked his van across the road, blocking the route at a location where the other option was to back track 4 miles or traverse a ravine, then acted as if he was having a medical emergency (and video recorded the whole thing, which is what signed his death row ticket). I realize it is a rarity, but when the rarity becomes the reality in your own life.... I don't know about you, but it affects how I percieve such an action. Doesn't stop me from riding, but it does mean I do take precautions, and sometimes those precautions include NOT riding.

I've been to some really great stylists, and none of them will recommend a pixie cut for my facial type (I've had 3, none actually looked good), and they will tell you that a shorter style will actually require MORE time to manage. So I cut the dry time by, at most, 10 minutes, but then need to carry 2-3 products and use a flat iron. The net change in time is a negative. It's very easy for me to look at someone with curly hair and say 'gee, it only takes me X to get my hair under control, I'm sure a stylist can get yours as efficient' and completly miss the point that their hair and features are completly different than mine and that realisticly, their routine may never be as efficient time wise. What looks appropriate on me probably doesn't look appropriate on you and vice versa, regardless of gender.

I'm also really glad you don't bruise. I have had 0 falls in the past three months. I have at least 4 bruises that I know occured while biking, all on the outside of my left leg, all from commuting (I also have one on the inside of my right leg, just from swiping the rack dismounting.) Heck, on the same route I bike, one of my friend had a 6 inch crack in his windshield from a thrown stone. If it can crack a windshield, it's going to bruise me. Maybe I'm just not as tough ;-) I don't have to show my legs off, so for me, that isn't a big deal (I also have scabs on both knees from a running accident) but as mentioned above, just because it doesn't apply to me doens't mean it isn't relevant for someone else.

Maybe part of the reason is that, rather than helping find effective solutions, concerns are dismissed . Put a locker room in with outlets and hair dryers, and I'd bike more often because I can't just go run my head under a sink faucet, towel off, and be done (yes, it would likely increase the number of men willing as well.) Get police officers to respond to harrassment complaints that include descriptions and plate numbers (for both men and women) and I would have less concern about biking on days that I will have to ride home at later hours. When someone says it's a concern, saying 'well, so and so does it with that concern' doesn't change that it's an actual concern for another group that prevents them from riding. I'm a skydiver and a SCUBA diver and I and a SAR K9 handler.... and all are very safe activities, but that doesn't mean the things that stop others from doing so aren't legitimate. Why don't more guys dance? Or play volleyball competitively? Or work as registered nurses and elementary school teachers? Just becuase the same challenges face a different population doesn't mean that the challenges don't feel more detrimental to the population in question.

sunstorm

Oh, thought I'd mention something else. A lack of local female 'leadership.' So I decided to take my roommate (just getting into biking) to a beginner ride tonight (she is terrified of roads and felt safer in a group with experienced riders.) We showed up. This is an 'all female' ride. Well, all female EXCEPT the people in charge of the ride; all guys. Now, we didn't end up riding due to weather (beginning group didn't ride, other groups did) and I asked the leader of the beginner group 'are there any women who would be able to lead this?' and he assured me there are a lot of really great female riders at this weekly ride, but none of them lead the ride groups. Huh? Now, this guy was really nice, reassuring, worked hard to make beginners feel comfortable, etc, but he is still a guy. If there are competent women, why aren't they leading? Is it lack of interest on the 'better' women's parts? was it that no one had suggested, asked, or offered them the oppurtunity to lead? (the leaders weren't employees of the shop, so that wasn't the limitation.) At least 4 female riders brought their HUSBANDs bikes and took the kids (women that are competitive, and have been biking for 20+ years, and whose husbands said would be great at leading). Now, I can understand that...except on a woman's ride, wouldn't it be better to have women lead? Maybe I'm just a bit confused.

BarracksSi

Why not? What do the competent women say?

Penny4

If it is an all female group, perhaps more women will gain experience and eventually become leaders. If the leader made everyone comfortable, gender wouldn't matter to me.

skye

Thank you, sunstorm, for your contributions. You managed to push the discussion past the "oooh, those evil, nasty mens make me uncomfortable" to look at some real issues.

Of them, I think the key one is lack of female leadership. There's no lack of women who are willing/capable to be leaders/figureheads on national or international levels. People like Jaquie Phelan (alright, she's a little wayward, but she's been absolutely instrumental in advancing the cause of women in cycling and she's funny as hell), Barbara Buatois, and Nicole Cook could all be used to help establish prominence for women in cycling. But it doesn't seem to be that any women are really clamoring for their assistance and leadership. Why not?