Police "judgement" versus Law
08-25-11, 07:45 PM
#27
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08-25-11, 08:45 PM
#28
Walmart bike rider
Well, in my small town, the school district does not allow any student in middle school or lower to ride a bicycle to school. Now, if the policeman was just acting on behalf of your school, then you probably need to discuss the issue with the school also. Probably wouldn't hurt to call the policemen's supervisor either. But don't be too harsh, he was looking out for your daughter's safety, although over-protective.
08-25-11, 08:50 PM
#29
Walmart bike rider
So did I. It was either bike, walk, or bus. Very few kids actually got dropped off by their parents. Today, it's a traffic zoo at the schools with literally over 200 cars waiting in line to pick up their kids. It's so bad around here, there's a stigma for kids who take the bus to school. How things have changed.
08-25-11, 08:59 PM
#30
Walmart bike rider
I'm not trying to start an argument. But after looking at google street view for the elementary school in that area, the cop had the right to be concerned. No shoulder, no sidewalk, narrow street that you know it very crowded when school is letting out.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=elizab...,70.18,,0,4.91
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=elizab...,70.18,,0,4.91
08-25-11, 09:12 PM
#32
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Give the officer a copy of the book Free Range Kids
08-25-11, 09:32 PM
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I have stated that if I was in the place of the officer, it would be what I would be thinking. I see a young girl bicycling around alone. I would look for parents. If no parental figure is around, I would inquire as to why. Child supervision is a a part of child safety, and I am guessing that is why she was given a ride hope and 'talked' to the parents.
Further clarification on this point is made by 2manybikes's observational skills;
I would say that his judgement/opinion is valid, but then again I do live in a big urban city that would probably have a bunch of people ready to snatch up an unsupervised child.
08-25-11, 09:34 PM
#34
incazzare.
Most abductions, of course, are by known persons. City/country has little to do with it.
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08-25-11, 09:39 PM
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That cop definitely had no right or business to threaten you and your daughter that way. It looks as if this cop wanted to stir up some trouble cause he was bored and wanted something to do. I would definitely report him to his superiors so that they can reprimand him for doing this. You can even press charges against him if you want.
08-25-11, 10:00 PM
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You should talk to a bike friendly bike lawyer, if you have one, and add a reasoned legal opinion to your personal opinion of safety when drafting your letter/complaint to the chief and mayor or whoever the chief's boss is. To me, a kid getting picked up by a cop is scarier than riding to school... humiliation in front of friends... being ordered around by a cop... Getting a lawyer to write part of the letter outlining the legal issues of riding AND the legal issue of the unauthorized intrusion into your life, might get their attention...
Steve Magas
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08-25-11, 10:03 PM
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What are the statistics of a child being abducted while being supervised vs or not supervised? I'm willing to bet the chances are way higher unsupervised.
EDIT:
I also have to add, that after seeing BikeLawyer's post I would say that these days, it's a game of liability. The officer probably just wanted to go on 'record' that he 'warned the parents' to not let the child go unsupervised. This probably isn't going to go any further than this. If anything were to happen and he did not do this, it would make the PD look 'bad' because 'they aren't doing there job'. Now that there is probably a file on record the PD can spin this in say that they have made efforts to warn parents of situations that would put children in danger, and they 'do there best' and infer that parents make poor choices if anything were to happen.
Last edited by 8Fishes; 08-25-11 at 10:09 PM.
08-25-11, 10:09 PM
#38
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Since when do we imprison the innocent to protect them from the possibility of criminals coming after them? Tell the cop that he's welcome to patrol the streets during her commute.
08-26-11, 01:27 AM
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Wow, it's been a long time since I posted on the forums! I am in desperate need of help though (and some need to vent!). Today my 10 year old daughter gets brought home by a police officer stating it is his 'judgement' that it is unsafe for my daughter to ride her bike to school and home again. During my conversation with the officer I learned she was obeying all designated laws (federal and local), her helmet was securely fastened and properly fitting, she was not riding in an unsafe manner, nor breaking any law. He informed me that if I continued to allow her there would be "problems". He explained to me that part of his job is public safely, and again in his opinion her riding her bicycle to school and home is "unsafe"; further stating that she has a bus available to ride, she needs to utilize it. If she was 14 or 15 it would be a different story of course (his opinion).
Humorously he requested my presence at the curb without asking if the children were old enough to be left unattended inside the house (sure public safety). At this point I told him I am well aware of the bicycle laws in the state of Tennessee for children under 40 inches/40 pounds, children under the age of 12 and adult cyclist. He (politely might I add) explained to me that although no law was broken in his judgement it was unsafe for her to walk or ride her bike to school and will be filing a report with child protection services for my decision to allow her. I really felt like he was...threatening me with child protective services if I didn't follow his directive.
First of all I don't believe there is a blanket age when a child is able to ride their bike to school and environment does play some role. I live in a very small rural town and her ride home does not entail any major intersection crossings. The intersection at the school is heavily trafficked however she dismounts and walks her bicycle across the street. I do not allow her to ride when it is dark for her ride either to or from school nor do I allow her to ride in inclement weather conditions (fog, rain, snow, extreme cold, etc.).
Before allowing her to even begin riding, we put her through a bicycle safety course, proper hand signal usage and rode the route she is to take with her numerous times to ensure she was able and respectful of road conditions. She makes excellent eye contact with drivers and (for a 10 year old) rides very defensively. She has been riding since age 3 and has grow up in an active cycle family so a great deal of this she takes as second nature.
I told the officer he is welcome to call child protective services, but it is my judgement as her mother that she is responsible enough and able to ride her bike the 1 mile to and from school that I have taken all safety precautions possible to ensure her safety. Additionally, I have called and left a message with his supervisor because as I previously said I feel I am being threatened with child protective services if I don't just say "yes officer, of course your right".
I would love some suggestions/comments on this please. My goal is to prevent other parents in my area from going through this also. I have made contact with safe routes to school in an attempt to establish a program for the school my children attend. What other options do I have?
Humorously he requested my presence at the curb without asking if the children were old enough to be left unattended inside the house (sure public safety). At this point I told him I am well aware of the bicycle laws in the state of Tennessee for children under 40 inches/40 pounds, children under the age of 12 and adult cyclist. He (politely might I add) explained to me that although no law was broken in his judgement it was unsafe for her to walk or ride her bike to school and will be filing a report with child protection services for my decision to allow her. I really felt like he was...threatening me with child protective services if I didn't follow his directive.
First of all I don't believe there is a blanket age when a child is able to ride their bike to school and environment does play some role. I live in a very small rural town and her ride home does not entail any major intersection crossings. The intersection at the school is heavily trafficked however she dismounts and walks her bicycle across the street. I do not allow her to ride when it is dark for her ride either to or from school nor do I allow her to ride in inclement weather conditions (fog, rain, snow, extreme cold, etc.).
Before allowing her to even begin riding, we put her through a bicycle safety course, proper hand signal usage and rode the route she is to take with her numerous times to ensure she was able and respectful of road conditions. She makes excellent eye contact with drivers and (for a 10 year old) rides very defensively. She has been riding since age 3 and has grow up in an active cycle family so a great deal of this she takes as second nature.
I told the officer he is welcome to call child protective services, but it is my judgement as her mother that she is responsible enough and able to ride her bike the 1 mile to and from school that I have taken all safety precautions possible to ensure her safety. Additionally, I have called and left a message with his supervisor because as I previously said I feel I am being threatened with child protective services if I don't just say "yes officer, of course your right".
I would love some suggestions/comments on this please. My goal is to prevent other parents in my area from going through this also. I have made contact with safe routes to school in an attempt to establish a program for the school my children attend. What other options do I have?
You should have asked him if he was willing to pay the doctor bills if your daughter became obese and developed diabetes because he thought it was "unsafe" for her to ride her bike to and from school.
08-26-11, 01:58 AM
#40
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Just out of curiosity, how many of us rode bikes to school at age 10? I know I did. I was also on the safety patrol. And no, we did not have an adult also on "my corner."
My neighbor had a paper route at about the same age. Do these even exist any more? I rode the route with him a couple of times... lots of early morning work for "just a kid."
9 years old was "the magic age" in my family... at 9, (4th grade) you got a bike.
My neighbor had a paper route at about the same age. Do these even exist any more? I rode the route with him a couple of times... lots of early morning work for "just a kid."
9 years old was "the magic age" in my family... at 9, (4th grade) you got a bike.
08-26-11, 02:10 AM
#41
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It depends on what the cop percieved as "unsafe". It also depends on the environment surrounding the ride. I did not let my kids ride unsupervised at age 10. It depends also on the child. 10 seems too young to me. Not because it was a bike ride, just the time spent alone. But my environment is probably more urban than what you describe. When they were 10 I was along for the ride.
Ask for more details from the police. If the cop was really going to call child protective services, there may be something you don't know about. An accident, an abduction, bullies, who knows? Maybe the cop has seen a lot of scary things that cause him to be that protective.
Ask for more details from the police. If the cop was really going to call child protective services, there may be something you don't know about. An accident, an abduction, bullies, who knows? Maybe the cop has seen a lot of scary things that cause him to be that protective.
I have to say that if I were the officer's shoes, my motives would be to see that your daughter was supervised so she wouldn't be kidnapped.
Kidnappings blow, and would probably involve a lot of time from the PD, and I suppose he was thinking if it can be prevented, all the better. Hence his recommendation for her to take the bus, where she would be supervised. His approach was wrong in the fact that he called her and your parenting out about bicycling, and should have just addressed the sidestepped; her safety for being kidnapped, and trying to cover it up by asserting she can be ran over by a bad motorist while biking.
Kidnappings blow, and would probably involve a lot of time from the PD, and I suppose he was thinking if it can be prevented, all the better. Hence his recommendation for her to take the bus, where she would be supervised. His approach was wrong in the fact that he called her and your parenting out about bicycling, and should have just addressed the sidestepped; her safety for being kidnapped, and trying to cover it up by asserting she can be ran over by a bad motorist while biking.
Y'all do know that there have been plenty of children who have grown up in large cities such as NYC, Chicago, LA and have ridden the subway at "early" ages with nothing bad ever happening to them. Today's kids are overprotected if you ask me.
When you have your have your sit down with the chef, etc. point out that by the officer putting your daughter into his car to drive her home opened him to the possibility of being accused of "improper" conduct.
08-26-11, 02:15 AM
#42
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I didn't notice anything about him being worried about abduction. It sounded entirely like he is one of those clueless idiots who thinks that bicycles are dangerous.
FWIW, most child abductions are by family members or other people that the child knows, not strangers. They are certainly scary but "abducted by strangers" is fortunately relatively rare. Our society has become far too paranoid and far too focused on unusual events.
FWIW, most child abductions are by family members or other people that the child knows, not strangers. They are certainly scary but "abducted by strangers" is fortunately relatively rare. Our society has become far too paranoid and far too focused on unusual events.
Last edited by Digital_Cowboy; 08-26-11 at 02:59 PM.
08-26-11, 02:41 AM
#43
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"I appreciate your concern and for bringing what you felt was an issue to my attention. However, neither her or I was acting in an unsafe manner or breaking any laws. I'll be glad to tell CPS the same thing. I'd also appreciate if you no longer pull my daughter over unless she is acting in an unsafe manner or breaking a law. I appreciate your opinion, but it isn't the law, and I'm going to go ahead and continue as I have been, since it is legal and I feel the best way to raise my daughter. Thanks."
Was what came to mind at first, but I probably would have been a lot more pissed
. I'd obviously recommend a talk with a higher-up about your concern of threats and him stretching his judgment too far. Might not hurt to also make mention of this to your local representative, and possibly the local paper. They like sensationalist headlines, especially involving institutional silliness. I think "10 year-old detained for riding bike to school" makes a good headline. 
Was what came to mind at first, but I probably would have been a lot more pissed
. I'd obviously recommend a talk with a higher-up about your concern of threats and him stretching his judgment too far. Might not hurt to also make mention of this to your local representative, and possibly the local paper. They like sensationalist headlines, especially involving institutional silliness. I think "10 year-old detained for riding bike to school" makes a good headline.
08-26-11, 02:43 AM
#44
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Just out of curiosity, how many of us rode bikes to school at age 10? I know I did. I was also on the safety patrol. And no, we did not have an adult also on "my corner."
My neighbor had a paper route at about the same age. Do these even exist any more? I rode the route with him a couple of times... lots of early morning work for "just a kid."
9 years old was "the magic age" in my family... at 9, (4th grade) you got a bike.
My neighbor had a paper route at about the same age. Do these even exist any more? I rode the route with him a couple of times... lots of early morning work for "just a kid."
9 years old was "the magic age" in my family... at 9, (4th grade) you got a bike.
KeS
08-26-11, 03:29 AM
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As a UK officer, I'd only make this sort of call if I'd just seen your child riding in a manner likely to cause an accident. He stated himself this wasn't the case, so I can't really see that being the issue.
I'd therefore assume his problem is the 10 year old travelling to school unsupervised, rather than the cycling aspect. This is further backed up by his quote of "it'd be different if she was 14 or 15". We are therefore into the realms of grey area of what age a child can go to school unsupervised. There is no age prescribed in UK law for this, its a (wait for it) judgement call!
The officers given you his advice. My advice to you would be to do as you have, and make your own informed choice. You certainly don't come across as an uncaring mother, and won't have a thing to worry about when it comes to Child Protective Services.
Lastly, it may not have been meant to be a threat about CPS. If its the same over there as it is in the UK, its probably arse-covering rules that mean he HAS to put a report in, purely to avoid any comeback on the police if something did happen later. I can promise you I've had to put plenty of reports into our version of CPS, Social Services where I've stressed that its a loving/caring family with no issues etc. Pure paperwork exercise.
So if I were you, I'd simply thank the officer for his concern, acknowledge it, but explain your views as you did above, then forget about the whole incident.
I'd therefore assume his problem is the 10 year old travelling to school unsupervised, rather than the cycling aspect. This is further backed up by his quote of "it'd be different if she was 14 or 15". We are therefore into the realms of grey area of what age a child can go to school unsupervised. There is no age prescribed in UK law for this, its a (wait for it) judgement call!
The officers given you his advice. My advice to you would be to do as you have, and make your own informed choice. You certainly don't come across as an uncaring mother, and won't have a thing to worry about when it comes to Child Protective Services.
Lastly, it may not have been meant to be a threat about CPS. If its the same over there as it is in the UK, its probably arse-covering rules that mean he HAS to put a report in, purely to avoid any comeback on the police if something did happen later. I can promise you I've had to put plenty of reports into our version of CPS, Social Services where I've stressed that its a loving/caring family with no issues etc. Pure paperwork exercise.
So if I were you, I'd simply thank the officer for his concern, acknowledge it, but explain your views as you did above, then forget about the whole incident.
08-26-11, 05:53 AM
#46
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I have to say that if I were the officer's shoes, my motives would be to see that your daughter was supervised so she wouldn't be kidnapped.
Kidnappings blow, and would probably involve a lot of time from the PD, and I suppose he was thinking if it can be prevented, all the better. Hence his recommendation for her to take the bus, where she would be supervised. His approach was wrong in the fact that he called her and your parenting out about bicycling, and should have just addressed the sidestepped; her safety for being kidnapped, and trying to cover it up by asserting she can be ran over by a bad motorist while biking.
Kidnappings blow, and would probably involve a lot of time from the PD, and I suppose he was thinking if it can be prevented, all the better. Hence his recommendation for her to take the bus, where she would be supervised. His approach was wrong in the fact that he called her and your parenting out about bicycling, and should have just addressed the sidestepped; her safety for being kidnapped, and trying to cover it up by asserting she can be ran over by a bad motorist while biking.
Perhaps the key question here is what age does a child have to have attained before being outside without a parent watching over them is considered a safe thing. Let's face it, if two or three heavy guys wanted to kidnap an average adult from their bike they could probably do it.
08-26-11, 05:58 AM
#47
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I have stated that if I was in the place of the officer, it would be what I would be thinking. I see a young girl bicycling around alone. I would look for parents. If no parental figure is around, I would inquire as to why. Child supervision is a a part of child safety, and I am guessing that is why she was given a ride hope and 'talked' to the parents.
The simple fact is that it's unrealistic to expect parents to watch over their children like hawks 24/7. Sooner or later kids need to spread their wings, and part of growing up is letting them spread their wings a little at a time.
If a policeman believes something is unsafe but a parent believes it is safe, whose opinion takes precedence? Do we really want to create a society where things are prohibited just because one person in a uniform thinks it might be dangerous?
08-26-11, 06:28 AM
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It depends on what the cop percieved as "unsafe". It also depends on the environment surrounding the ride. I did not let my kids ride unsupervised at age 10. It depends also on the child. 10 seems too young to me. Not because it was a bike ride, just the time spent alone. But my environment is probably more urban than what you describe. When they were 10 I was along for the ride.
Ask for more details from the police. If the cop was really going to call child protective services, there may be something you don't know about. An accident, an abduction, bullies, who knows? Maybe the cop has seen a lot of scary things that cause him to be that protective.
Ask for more details from the police. If the cop was really going to call child protective services, there may be something you don't know about. An accident, an abduction, bullies, who knows? Maybe the cop has seen a lot of scary things that cause him to be that protective.
Give the officer a copy of the book Free Range Kids
08-26-11, 06:31 AM
#49
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Update
Well my husband talked with the officer at the school this morning who says they have been receiving 'complaints' about a young child riding to school and back (remember this is a distance of 1 mile). Not that the child was doing anything unsafe, just that she was riding to and from school.And it is there 'policy' in issues of safety to inform child protective services. He did write a report regarding this so I will go down today and pick that up (I want a copy for my records)
In my opinion it may be a matter of an unsupervised child - but the reason is she is riding her bike. Realistically how many parents of 10 year old go outside and make their children stay in the front yard. What is the difference of a 10 year old child outside playing alone and riding a bike 1 mile to school?
Apparently some of the complaints focused on terrain. Well there is a large hill she must climb but even the officer admitted "she was scooting right along" so obviously this "terrain" inst an issue for her. One point they keep making is the lack of sidewalk (there isn't one) - however we have intentionally taught her how to ride in the street safely and competently.
I am PROUD to say my child is a competent cyclist who enjoys her rides and her bicycle and I am proud be able to allow her this privilege. Bottom line at this point, she will continue to ride and cps will get slot of complaints. When it is raining, foggy, cold or dark she will ride the bus as she has always done.
In my opinion it may be a matter of an unsupervised child - but the reason is she is riding her bike. Realistically how many parents of 10 year old go outside and make their children stay in the front yard. What is the difference of a 10 year old child outside playing alone and riding a bike 1 mile to school?
Apparently some of the complaints focused on terrain. Well there is a large hill she must climb but even the officer admitted "she was scooting right along" so obviously this "terrain" inst an issue for her. One point they keep making is the lack of sidewalk (there isn't one) - however we have intentionally taught her how to ride in the street safely and competently.
I am PROUD to say my child is a competent cyclist who enjoys her rides and her bicycle and I am proud be able to allow her this privilege. Bottom line at this point, she will continue to ride and cps will get slot of complaints. When it is raining, foggy, cold or dark she will ride the bus as she has always done.
08-26-11, 07:27 AM
#50
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Well my husband talked with the officer at the school this morning who says they have been receiving 'complaints' about a young child riding to school and back (remember this is a distance of 1 mile). Not that the child was doing anything unsafe, just that she was riding to and from school.And it is there 'policy' in issues of safety to inform child protective services. He did write a report regarding this so I will go down today and pick that up (I want a copy for my records)
In my opinion it may be a matter of an unsupervised child - but the reason is she is riding her bike. Realistically how many parents of 10 year old go outside and make their children stay in the front yard. What is the difference of a 10 year old child outside playing alone and riding a bike 1 mile to school?
Apparently some of the complaints focused on terrain. Well there is a large hill she must climb but even the officer admitted "she was scooting right along" so obviously this "terrain" inst an issue for her. One point they keep making is the lack of sidewalk (there isn't one) - however we have intentionally taught her how to ride in the street safely and competently.
I am PROUD to say my child is a competent cyclist who enjoys her rides and her bicycle and I am proud be able to allow her this privilege. Bottom line at this point, she will continue to ride and cps will get slot of complaints. When it is raining, foggy, cold or dark she will ride the bus as she has always done.
In my opinion it may be a matter of an unsupervised child - but the reason is she is riding her bike. Realistically how many parents of 10 year old go outside and make their children stay in the front yard. What is the difference of a 10 year old child outside playing alone and riding a bike 1 mile to school?
Apparently some of the complaints focused on terrain. Well there is a large hill she must climb but even the officer admitted "she was scooting right along" so obviously this "terrain" inst an issue for her. One point they keep making is the lack of sidewalk (there isn't one) - however we have intentionally taught her how to ride in the street safely and competently.
I am PROUD to say my child is a competent cyclist who enjoys her rides and her bicycle and I am proud be able to allow her this privilege. Bottom line at this point, she will continue to ride and cps will get slot of complaints. When it is raining, foggy, cold or dark she will ride the bus as she has always done.
I generally agree with you... I am merely offering suggestions to get the busy bodies off of your back. On the flip side... if these folks do see your daughter, perhaps they are actually watching out for her.
Used to be that the "village" watched out for each other, and neighbors talked and knew one another.