View Poll Results: Helmet wearing habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
178
10.66%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
94
5.63%
I've always worn a helmet
648
38.80%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
408
24.43%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
342
20.48%
Voters: 1670. You may not vote on this poll
The helmet thread
#1576
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Or it might just be that some people live in small centers that don't have organized rides.
Last edited by Deathly Hallows; 02-26-12 at 02:18 PM.
#1577
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#1 Please rephrase without triple negatives
#2 Please provide proof that someone that is not you has said whatever it is that your not claiming that they didn't not say.
#1579
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"For bicyclists ≥16 years of age, there were only slight changes in the average number of deaths per year and the mortality rate per 100000 person-years, and the time series analysis demonstrated no significant change in deaths after legislation."
*Phew*... good thing I've said from the beginning that children are one of those classes helmets are useful for, eh?
*Phew*... good thing I've said from the beginning that children are one of those classes helmets are useful for, eh?
There were 362 bicycle-related deaths in the 12-year period (1–15 years: 107 deaths; ≥16 years: 255 deaths). For bicyclists 1 to 15 years of age, the average number of deaths per year decreased 52%, the mortality rate per 100000 person-years decreased 55%, and the time series analysis demonstrated a significant reduction in deaths after legislation. The estimated change in the number of deaths per month was −0.59 deaths per month. For bicyclists ≥16 years of age, there were only slight changes in the average number of deaths per year and the mortality rate per 100000 person-years, and the time series analysis demonstrated no significant change in deaths after legislation.
I've never said there aren't studies out to the contrary; I know there are, I've seen them. Some of them dubious, some of them I'm not surprised by (such as the quoted one showing helmets can be effective for children), some of them, such as some of the others here, seem more valid. I've said that the evidence is shaky and contradictory. There's been more than one study already posted concerning helmets relative inability to prevent concussions and other brain trauma, theoretically due to the fact that brain injury may be caused by rotational injury. But again, if you take a more conservative position in how much a helmet can help with, the evidence becomes less and less contradicted. These results you post on preventing serious injury and death (that's not what all of them said) have other studies that reach very different conclusions to counter them, however. The Australian study was mentioned (that one I think I have bookmarked somewhere...), here is one that says while helmets reduce injury, it's not clear that they prevent concussion.
Could you please provide more links? I've been able to find only a small handful of studies suggesting helmets provide little/no or ill effects, dozens that suggest some protective effect, and quite a few that show protection from serious injuries or death. Of the first group, one deals with oral/maxillofacial trauma in young children; not many helmets cover the chin and face, so rather redundant findings.
#1580
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Incidentally, sudo bike, here's another source I found while looking for the German text of Kelsch et al. This concludes that "Radhelme schützen und können bei Unfällen das Risiko schwerer Kopfverletzungen und erheblicher Folgeschäden deutlich verringern."
"Cycle helmets protect and can notably lessen the risk of severe head injuries and substantial complications in accidents."
https://www.verkehrswacht-bruchsal-br...ahrradhelm.pdf an Expert Commission of Thüringen, Germany report "Bicycle Helmets: Effective Protective from Head Injuries"
"Cycle helmets protect and can notably lessen the risk of severe head injuries and substantial complications in accidents."
https://www.verkehrswacht-bruchsal-br...ahrradhelm.pdf an Expert Commission of Thüringen, Germany report "Bicycle Helmets: Effective Protective from Head Injuries"
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Anyone else notice how many dubious sources get thrown around in this issue? "Helmets don't protect you, and they reduce the number of cyclists and do risk-compensation stuff because an anti-helmet website says so. Oh, and I got this newspaper editorial, too!"
#1582
Senior Member
From the ECF
https://www.ecf.com/road-safety/helme...lective-vests/
What is the ECF doing?
They discourage cycling by portraying it as abnormally dangerous-you are less likely to be killed in a mile of cycling than a mile of walking*(Wardlaw 2002).
A well respected literature review states ‘When the risk of injury to head, face or neck is viewed as a whole, bicycle helmets do provide a small protective effect. This effect is evident only in older studies. New studies, summarised by a random-effects model of analysis, indicate no net protective effect.’ (Elvik 2011)
Injured cyclists are less likely to have head injuries than injured pedestrians or car occupants (ONISR 2005).
They portray bicycle helmets as offering far more protection than they do. Bicycle helmets are only designed to withstand minor knocks and bumps, not being hit by motor vehicles; see more here On Bicycle Helmet Standards.
Countries that have penalised people for normal cycling (without helmets), have failed to reduce head injury rates despite increased helmet wearing rates. See an ECF factsheet on the case of Australia and its helmet laws – Australia and cycle helmet laws
The health benefits of cycling far outweigh the injury risks (de Hartog et al, 2010)
Reduced cycling reduces health and environmental benefits.
Reduced cycling reduces Safety in Numbers, thus increasing the risk of injury to remaining cyclists (Jacobsen PL, 2003).
You don't have to agree with these studies, but you should acknowledge that there is a non-consensus as to the effect of helmet use
Last edited by closetbiker; 02-26-12 at 02:48 PM.
#1583
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Yes. And I've seen you post a couple of them
From the ECF
https://www.ecf.com/road-safety/helme...lective-vests/
What is the ECF doing?
They discourage cycling by portraying it as abnormally dangerous-you are less likely to be killed in a mile of cycling than a mile of walking*(Wardlaw 2002).
A well respected literature review states ‘When the risk of injury to head, face or neck is viewed as a whole, bicycle helmets do provide a small protective effect. This effect is evident only in older studies. New studies, summarised by a random-effects model of analysis, indicate no net protective effect.’ (Elvik 2011)
Injured cyclists are less likely to have head injuries than injured pedestrians or car occupants (ONISR 2005).
They portray bicycle helmets as offering far more protection than they do. Bicycle helmets are only designed to withstand minor knocks and bumps, not being hit by motor vehicles; see more here On Bicycle Helmet Standards.
Countries that have penalised people for normal cycling (without helmets), have failed to reduce head injury rates despite increased helmet wearing rates. See an ECF factsheet on the case of Australia and its helmet laws – Australia and cycle helmet laws
The health benefits of cycling far outweigh the injury risks (de Hartog et al, 2010)
Reduced cycling reduces health and environmental benefits.
Reduced cycling reduces Safety in Numbers, thus increasing the risk of injury to remaining cyclists (Jacobsen PL, 2003).
From the ECF
https://www.ecf.com/road-safety/helme...lective-vests/
What is the ECF doing?
They discourage cycling by portraying it as abnormally dangerous-you are less likely to be killed in a mile of cycling than a mile of walking*(Wardlaw 2002).
A well respected literature review states ‘When the risk of injury to head, face or neck is viewed as a whole, bicycle helmets do provide a small protective effect. This effect is evident only in older studies. New studies, summarised by a random-effects model of analysis, indicate no net protective effect.’ (Elvik 2011)
Injured cyclists are less likely to have head injuries than injured pedestrians or car occupants (ONISR 2005).
They portray bicycle helmets as offering far more protection than they do. Bicycle helmets are only designed to withstand minor knocks and bumps, not being hit by motor vehicles; see more here On Bicycle Helmet Standards.
Countries that have penalised people for normal cycling (without helmets), have failed to reduce head injury rates despite increased helmet wearing rates. See an ECF factsheet on the case of Australia and its helmet laws – Australia and cycle helmet laws
The health benefits of cycling far outweigh the injury risks (de Hartog et al, 2010)
Reduced cycling reduces health and environmental benefits.
Reduced cycling reduces Safety in Numbers, thus increasing the risk of injury to remaining cyclists (Jacobsen PL, 2003).
* "you are less likely to be killed in a mile of cycling than a mile of walking" Actually, that depends on where you cycle. In New Zealand, for example, the annual number of injuries per million hours spent travelling (95% CI) for cyclists is eclipsed only by motorcyclists and is about six times higher than pedestrians. About three times higher than pedestrians for serious injuries (AIS=>3). Incidentally, the majority of deaths and injuries recorded did not occur with motor vehicle involvement.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989960/
* Elvik says helmets clearly reduce the risk of head injury. Only four studies suggesting some level of potential increased neck injury lead him to suggest "no net protective effect," and one of those studies actually concludes, "The study is inconclusive about the risk for neck injuries." https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/cont.../1/27.abstract
(Another of the four says, "A legislative initiative for wearing bicycle helmets as well is therefore necessary." https://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Bicy.../10718089.html Another says, "When worn, protection against injury was demonstrated. A campaign to promote use of bicycle helmets should be targeted at non-residents and older bicyclists. Authorities should consider compulsory helmet laws for bicyclists..." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16645684)
So, it's worth digging further than the initial misleading soundbite. Worth noting, too, that when he says "new" studies, he does not mean chronologically new, just not included in the meta-analysis he's re-analyzing.
* "Bicycle helmets are only designed to withstand minor knocks and bumps, not being hit by motor vehicles"
See all the scientific research and helmet testing standards I've posted for a broad and detailed refutation of that idea.
* "Countries that have penalised people for normal cycling (without helmets), have failed to reduce head injury rates despite increased helmet wearing rates."
The use of "normal" there is obviously loaded. Further,
"The bicycle-related head injury rate declined significantly (45% reduction) in [Canadian] provinces where legislation had been adopted compared with provinces and territories that did not adopt legislation (27% reduction)." https://pediatrics.aappublications.or...5/e60.abstract Impact of Mandatory Helmet Legislation on Bicycle-Related Head Injuries in Children: A Population-Based Study
"Canadian youth and adults are significantly more likely to wear helmets as the comprehensiveness of helmet legislation increases. Helmet legislation is not associated with changes in ridership."
https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/16/4/219 The effects of provincial bicycle helmet legislation on helmet use and bicycle ridership in Canada
or
"The number of insurance claims from bicyclists killed or admitted to hospital after sustaining a head injury decreased by 48% and 70% in the first and second years after the law [in Australia], respectively. Analysis of the injury data also showed a 23% and 28% reduction in the number of bicyclists killed or admitted to hospital who did not sustain head injuries in the first and second post-law years, respectively. For Melbourne, where regular annual surveys of helmet wearing have been conducted, it was possible to fit a logistic regression model that related the reduction in head injuries to increased helmet wearing." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8011045 Mandatory bicycle helmet use following a decade of helmet promotion in Victoria, Australia--an evaluation.
Last edited by Six-Shooter; 02-26-12 at 03:10 PM.
#1584
Senior Member
And you don't think the studies you've posted have a number of obvious problems?
Oh wait. I remember. Everything you post is right, and anything that contradicts what you post is wrong.
Any discussion is pointless.
Oh wait. I remember. Everything you post is right, and anything that contradicts what you post is wrong.
Any discussion is pointless.
Last edited by closetbiker; 02-26-12 at 05:54 PM.
#1585
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I would guess that some of these are simply pulled from the criticised paper links on the cyclehelmets.org site. e.g. the Wesson paper and many of the others cited above.
https://cyclehelmets.org/1202.html
Last edited by RazrSkutr; 02-26-12 at 06:34 PM. Reason: add useful ped/cyclist trend chart
#1586
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And again we have a clear claim that bicycle helmets are useful for impacts with motor vehicles.
#1587
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(Another of the four says, "A legislative initiative for wearing bicycle helmets as well is therefore necessary." https://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Bicy.../10718089.html
Originally Posted by Hausotter, W. 2000. Unreadable German Medical German Title
Just as in professional and sports activities, protection of the head and neck also when bicycling has been urgently recommended and its effect repeatedly confirmed by recent statistical results. Wearing helmets by motorcyclists has clearly reduced the severity and frequency of head injuries since it became compulsory. A legislative initiative for wearing bicycle helmets as well is therefore necessary.
Last edited by RazrSkutr; 02-26-12 at 06:35 PM. Reason: color correlate motorcyclists and bicycle
#1588
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I dont see what the point of arguing over this is. We're grown adults. We can decide for ourselves and be responsible for the consequences. It's as pointless as arguing over the usage of condoms.
#1589
Cycle Year Round
How many mandatory condom use laws have you come across?
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#1590
Bicikli Huszár
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Look, it's not completely arbitrary speculation, it's speculation I'm basing on other more available evidence, but I'm not going to pretend I can prove exactly how it applies to cycling. I don't think it's the end-all-be-all in the helmet debate. I just think it's silly to stick fingers in ears and pretend it doesn't exist at all; that's empirically false, and illogical to boot. Risk/reward perception changes, decisions based on them change... I can hardly think of a more logical statement.
Also, I don't think I said it plays a significant role in cycling alone, but that the risk/reward analysis plays a significant role in our everyday lives; that's a bit more provable.
#1591
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Child cyclists are people, too, so their safety vis-a-vis helmet use is worth noting in my book. Anyway, I provided a bunch scientific studies showing helmets offer some protective effect for serious head injuries (e.g., fracture, concussion, etc., not just scrapes and scratches) or death. Take 'em or leave 'em. Fwiw, here's the full summary of the article in question:
As far as your evidence, as I noted with my breakdown of the previous, they don't all say anything other than what I've been saying: That helmet use for normal adult riding doesn't have much affect on fatalities or serious injury. Those that do face other studies that come to opposing conclusions. So I don't think I'm terribly out of line saying that evidence that helmets save lives or prevent serious injury is contradictory and therefore suspect.
Could you please provide more links? I've been able to find only a small handful of studies suggesting helmets provide little/no or ill effects, dozens that suggest some protective effect, and quite a few that show protection from serious injuries or death. Of the first group, one deals with oral/maxillofacial trauma in young children; not many helmets cover the chin and face, so rather redundant findings.
FWIW, I've seen plenty of studies showing that helmets help with relatively minor injuries, but have seen multiple studies and statistics casting much doubt on the assertion that they save lives or prevent concussions and other similar injuries.
EDIT: Sorry, I just checked... it must have been on a previous install . It's been posted in this thread, I think in the first few pages (the study on the MHL in Oz).
Last edited by sudo bike; 02-27-12 at 07:01 PM.
#1593
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Discussion is pointless to you when someone actually uses facts and sources instead of pulling nonsense out of thin air. It's striking how you rarely respond with any evidence or analysis of the evidence presented, but rather throw up your hands and walk away, only to come back and repeat the process.
Last edited by Six-Shooter; 02-27-12 at 08:46 AM.
#1594
Senior Member
Point being: people think cycling is dangerous and that helmets will somehow help with that. The helmet companies do nothing to talk people out of this perception, quite the contrary, they are happy to take advantage of it. But I'm still waiting for any kind of a clear link that helmet companies are resposible for perception by the public regarding the "danger" of cycling, or that they misstate what a helmet can do to mitigate injury beyond what they are designed for.
The people responsible for such are probably the same kinds of people who think MHLs are a good idea, woefully underrepresented in this thread...
#1595
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Just taking a casual peek at the reams of stuff that you post makes me wonder do you do anything beyond a google search for abstracts? The paper that you're citing there actually argues that because motorcycle helmets reduce head injuries, so to should bicycle helmets:
Last edited by Six-Shooter; 02-27-12 at 09:00 AM.
#1596
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But, hey, since you bring it up, this Cochrane Review finds that "Wearing a helmet dramatically reduces the risk of head and facial injuries for bicyclists involved in a crash, even if it involves a motor vehicle." https://www.thecochranelibrary.com/us...d/CD001855.pdf
Last edited by Six-Shooter; 02-27-12 at 08:57 AM.
#1597
Senior Member
It's striking how you rarely respond with any evidence or analysis of the evidence presented, but rather throw up your hands and walk away, only to come back and repeat the process.
Go on as much as you like, but the helmet debate has been going on for decades now, and the vast majority of people of the world have chosen to go lidless. Not everyone, and not all the time, but it's a minority of cyclists in the world that insists on helmet use.
There is a silver lining to rants like yours. It provides incentive for someone who have some questions to go out and search the evidence for themselves and come to their own conclusions. I know that's what I did. After wearing a helmet for about 10 years, I finally looked into the research and found things weren't as they seemed or were presented. It took another 10 years of consultations and discussions, but I finally took my helmet off because I came to the conclusion the helmet provided little benefit and contributed to a distortion of perception to the reality of cycling.
Feel free to wear your helmet, they do provide some benefit, but as with most things, there is a negative side to them as well. It'd be naive to think there isn't, and it'd be folly to promote an incomplete picture of helmet use.
#1598
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Looks like the helmeteers just got another puncture in their little fantasy bubble. It's a ***** when science doesn't back up your myths.
This evaluation finds the helmet law has failed in aspects of promoting cycling, safety, health, accident compensation, environmental issues and civil liberties.
#1600
Senior Member
I think the argument here is what happens when helmet use is adopted. Do the real life results match the case control studies?
And speaking from experience, what I've seen in this thread is what I saw 20 years ago. People started questioning the wisdom of cyclists without helmets and then getting involved in compelling them to do so.
I still have a couple of clippings from the paper when the issue of the possibility of a helmet law was in the air. The arguments are remarkably familiar.
One thing I think that has changed over the years is the exposure of the poor quality of some of the studies used for helmet promotion. Another is that after having some experience with both helmet use and helmet laws, there is far more opposition to such laws because of the negative aspects of helmet promotion and compulsion.
And speaking from experience, what I've seen in this thread is what I saw 20 years ago. People started questioning the wisdom of cyclists without helmets and then getting involved in compelling them to do so.
I still have a couple of clippings from the paper when the issue of the possibility of a helmet law was in the air. The arguments are remarkably familiar.
One thing I think that has changed over the years is the exposure of the poor quality of some of the studies used for helmet promotion. Another is that after having some experience with both helmet use and helmet laws, there is far more opposition to such laws because of the negative aspects of helmet promotion and compulsion.
Last edited by closetbiker; 02-27-12 at 09:57 AM.