I love to ride my bike (in Toronto) but, unfortunately, I have to use my car, too. And almost every time I drive my car, some idiot complains when I occupy the bike lane, close to an intersection, while turning right.

A right-turning car MUST move into the bike lane before the intersection, in the area where the line delimiting the bike lane turns from continuous to broken, after signaling and making sure not to cut off any cyclists. The guiding principle is to always make a right turn from the right lane. Turning across lanes, as many ignorant car drivers do, is a big no-no, since it can (and often does) result in crashes and near-crashes, especially "right hook" collisions frequently suffered by bicyclists. Complaining with a car driver who is occupying the bike lane while turning right, as many ignorant cyclists do, is an equally big no-no!

Depends. If the cyclist is coming up behind you, let them pass--then make your turn. If they're way back there, go for it. The problem I have--often--is people pulling into the bike lane when I'm right behind them, giving me nowhere to go.

The rules for changing lane from a car lane to the bike lane are the same as for any other lane change. That is why I wrote 'after signaling and making sure not to cut off any cyclists.' As long as lane change rules are respected, it does not 'depend', sorry!

Allow room - use signals to show intent and all should be fine. I have had cars cut into the right lane to turn but if i see their turn signal i yield to them and on my way.

It does 'depend', actually. It depends upon, as you said, making sure you don't cut any cyclists off. I'm not arguing with you, you say you are doing it the right way, I'm just saying there are plenty of drivers who DON'T check to be sure of that.

Now, that said, if this happens to you a lot, maybe you have a blind spot.

@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; **p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; **div.Section1 { page: Section1; ** I don't want to turn this into a philosophical disquisition or a personal war, Lostarchitect. I was just suggesting that your first response was imprecise. The rule, as I described it, does not ‘depend’ on anything. The fact that many drivers don’t care about cyclist and cut them off is absolutely true but does not modify the rule. And no, the problem is not about me cutting off cyclist because of a blind spot (I ride my bike too often not to be extremely sensitive to the issue), trust me. I think it is more about cyclists who want to make a point no matter what, and are often wrong. It is about the omnipresent hostility and lack of mutual respect between drivers and cyclists. A lot of idiots drive. A lot of idiots ride a bike (and riding a bike does not automatically improves a person’s IQ!) Fair winds!

I think the key is signaling early. I've seen cyclists get made at people for following the law and merging into the bike lane to turn right with plenty of room because they don't seem to understand the law. I've also seen drivers just pull in without looking. If you signal in advance and make sure you aren't cutting people off/hitting people, there is really not much else left to do.

Of course, we can't be sure what northernease's definition of "not cutting off cyclists" is. For all we know, he could be giving them one foot of room.

If you get routinely yelled at, you might stop and think that you might be doing something wrong.

Of course, we can't be sure either way and only have your word to take for granted.

[QUOTE=mikeybikes;13377367]Of course, we can't be sure what northernease's definition of "not cutting off cyclists" is. For all we know, he could be giving them one foot of room.
QUOTE]

He could be giving them 100+ yards and ends up having to wait to turn right, and the pompous cyclists are giving him grief because he's in "their" bike lane.

So it doesn't 'depend', it just depends. Got it.

Generally speaking for this to happen in my part of Los Angeles someone has to be a real jerk for this to occur. There is plenty of room to the right of the bike lane for a car.

If a car merged correctly they would be to teh right and any cyclist complaining is a jerk. If the car merges with out proper space of fails to clear the bike lane they the driver is a jerk.

I cannot think of any exceptions in my area. Well some half exceptions where the bike lane ends and one could think it remains.

Where do you ride in LA? I encounter this pretty regularly on my commute down Santa Monica Blvd through West Hollywood. Cars turning right and merge into the bike lane like they are supposed to, but then have to wait for pedestrians crossing and sit in the bike lane. Drivers don't have to clear the bike lane when turning right in CA. I just merge into the non-bike lane to my left and continue past around the car with the rest of the traffic and then merge back into the bike lane once around. Sometimes they merge without signaling and when I am too close, but in that case they are doing it wrong.

Where is there a 'MUST' in Canadian law and Ontario Provincial law, that says you "MUST" occupy a bike lane to make a turn?

San Fernando Valley, and work in Calabassas. All the bike lanes have 2 lines and approaching any intersection tehy are broken, but are solid again befoer the intersection. The area to the right ranges from a boat of an SUV will still partially be in the bike lane to anythign less than a truck should fit to the right.

Oh excluding the really strange one on Oxnard going over the hill, that one has enough ot the right of the bike lane for a semi to fit on the right (though not when lining up for a turn of course).

The bike lanes in the Valley are different than in the main part of L.A. Much more space. I've ridden both. L.A. bike lanes can be pretty sketchy in spots.

I wish I had bike lanes to complain about.

I will be happy to give you Honolulu's bike lanes, along with the mandatory use law:

So CBHI, is it that bike lanes are evil, or the "engineers" that paint such bike lanes are evil.

Those bike lanes are hardly the stuff of any "standard."

I saw plenty of bike lanes as bad in CA. Bike lanes in OR and Washington DC, plus many other states have killed cyclist.

If there are proper/safe bike lane standards, why do so many bad and dangerous bike lanes keep getting painted?

There are NOT proper/safe bike lane standards... let's get that truth out there right now. As long as AASHTO and MUTCD continue to specify that BL can be in door zones, and give bike lanes widths with widely varying margins, there are no proper/safe bike lane standards. Freeways are generally more tightly controlled and standardized, yet bad exits and poor merge lanes still exist (and are being built today).

Now that said... What you have shown are particularly bad, and I would think that with the mandatory use laws, these areas would be subject to class action suits. Of course that means cyclists have to stand up as one voice...

Hey, thank you for all your contributions. The original point was partially lost in the process but I am learning a lot. A few random comments follow, in no particular order.

1. Having risked my life for years riding my bike in the crazy traffic of some of the most congested cities of Southern Europe, where there is NO cycling culture at all, when I came to Toronto I thought I was in heaven. Now that I learn something about bike lanes in San Fernando Valley I am REALLY envious! (well, it's not just about the bike lanes, it's the weather and landscape too, I have to admit!)

2. I think the comment posted by Chris516 is the best possible example of the only point I really wanted to make when I started this thread: many, many cyclist do not know the rules! Yes, Chris, I am sorry to shock you by saying this but cars that are turning right in Toronto HAVE to cross into the bike lane before the intersection. That is why the line separating the right car lane from the bike lane becomes broken at that point. Then, if people are crossing, they have all the right to occupy the bike lane as long as needed before turning safely. If you come from far behind, find a car in this situation and complain, you are WRONG!!! If you don't believe me, just contact people at CAN-BIKE and have a look at their page on the most common car-bike collisions (https://www.toronto.ca/cycling/safety/car-bike.htm)! I started this thread for people like you! No bad feelings

3. Thank you for your support, Dchiefransom: that is actually the situation I was trying to describe. I don't know whether cyclists complain because they are pompous or just because they are ignorant of the rules and tired of drivers who don't give a s*** about bikers, but that happens all the time (and not just to me!)

4. And finally, lostarchitect, if you really like to be always right just be right and happy!

Happy (and safe) biking to all of you!

Ontario's highway traffic act:

Would you prefer to have right-turning traffic to the left of straight-through traffic?

I am right, you just don't seem to understand. That's ok. Keep your eyes open for that blind spot.

This:

141. (2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (2).

- Makes no mention of bike lanes before, or after the fact, as to making use of a bike lane for a right-turn. Additionally, It specifies making a right turn, for going on to an intersecting highway.

They should do the same thing that is need for left-turn traffic, when they are making a right-turn-

Look

-If they watch for left-turn traffic, why shouldn't they watch for traffic in the bike lane, instead of hogging it for the right-turn.

Putting it in the positive, when experienced cyclists are part of the planning process designs are much improved. When cyclists organize and build good connections we increase our chances of getting in on the ground floor.