G1nko

BBC News article. Parking for 10,000 bikes? Wow. My company is progressive and it can accommodate 20ish.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23587916

mconlonx

Why is cycling popular in --Ne---?

It's flat.

Rootman

It's been over 10 years since I last went there but I remember these bike parking garages, just THOUSANDS of bikes everywhere. I would love it.

vol

An oil crisis is what we need.

It would be nice to have only bikes and trams on the streets. I think that will be a much safer world without much sacrifice. You may drive your own trams just like you own cars.

Pedaleur

Yes and no.

Poirier

Used bikes sell for about 20 euros in certain neighborhoods.

Dchiefransom

It's hard to get a driver's license.

genec

How about.... because it works.

Northwestrider

So is Kansas, of course you are right that is one of the reasons, but only one. Their mind set is different. Stop lights for cars, different stop lights for Bicycles. Gas is more expensive. IMO they for what ever reason take care of the environment more than we.

1nterceptor

I've been to the Netherlands a few times. The OP article pointed out a combination of
factors that make cycling popular there; infrastructure, parking, training, etc. But it
missed some points I think. One is the weather. Summers are not as hot as Texas for
example. Winters aren't as harsh as in Canada. Another is distance to where you're
going. I commute almost 17 miles one way to work. I don't think a lot of Dutch folks
would ride that far. One place that has a lot of bike parking are train stations, since
they have an excellent network of trams and trains. If you have a long commute, riding
to the train station is an option.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPHI-JWj3Rw

mr_pedro

One point that is often missed is just culture. In the Netherlands most members of the government have cars with private drivers, but there are some that go to work on a bicycle.
On the other hand, over here in the US, last year after parking my bike in the garage at the office there was a lady that had just parked her car (in the handicap spot, while it seemed that her handicap was being so fat she could not walk properly anymore) and as we both walk to the elevators she asks me: "So are you working here for the summer?" So she thinks I am an intern because I was riding a bicycle.

The country can be as flat as a pancake and the weather can be perfect, but if the common idea is that only poor people ride a bicycle, it will never be very popular.

nelson249

Gas prices and finding a parking space for the car?

dynodonn 

No thank you, I've gone through two, not a pretty sight. I'd much rather go through a slow rehab than go cold turkey.

mconlonx

Of course, all this. I was being funny.

We visited Amsterdam a while back and it was truly amazing. What I loved was Dutch cyclists yelling at USAian tourists using the bike lane to hike their oversized, wheeled luggage through the crowd. Once or twice getting told off by a mad Dutch cyclist and they were back on the sidewalk, salmoning through ped traffic.

Separated bike lanes is another feature of Dutch cycling, common in Amsterdam anyway.

556x45

I have a lot of family over there. Based on what they've said and what I've observed, it's due largely to the following reasons.

1. It's super flat.
2. Driving a car is a pain.
2a. Gas is expensive.
2b. Driving-related taxes are expensive.
2c. The roads are tiny.
2d. There's very little parking.
3. The country is tiny, so the distances between locations are typically much smaller.
4. The bike infrastructure is awesome (both a cause and effect of the large cycling population).
5. The average Dutchman is in better physical condition than the average American.
6. Although probably a more minor reason than the aforementioned, the Dutch I encountered were more environmentally concerned than most people I know in the United States.
7. Culture* (See below)

*In my limited visits to the Netherlands and Germany, I got the impression that driving was viewed as much more of a luxury than it is in the United States. For example, I'm 21 and I don't know even one person my age who does not have a driver's license. By the time I was a senior in high school, I didn't know even one person in my class who did not drive. Most of them even owned a car.

In the Netherlands (and also Germany) though, nobody I met in the age range of 16-20 years old owned a car or even had a driver's license. In the Netherlands this was primarily due to the short distances and the prevalence of cycling (as well as a combination of factors listed above), and in Germany (Munich) this was due to the excellence of the public transit system (as well as some of the same reasons listed above for the Netherlands). If the topic of driving or vehicle ownership came up, locals my age were amused that I owned a car, and they acted like this placed me in some elite, privileged category. I eventually tried not to bring it up because their reactions made me feel so pretentious.

Pedaleur

Not bad, except for #3 . Yes, Holland is small, but few people anywhere regularly travel distances where the size of the country matters. It's more the density and layout, so I would add that Dutch urban planning is more conducive to making places where cycling is convenient (less sprawl, for example).

genec

While I do agree with your statement... in that few people commute or shop from town to town even in the US of A, the reality is that since our towns are laid out with autos in mind, even intracity travel in the US can involve more distance than that in towns in the Netherlands.

My typical bike commutes to work across San Diego over the years (to different employers) has been at least 6 miles one way and as much as 30 miles one way, quite often near 10-12 miles. I think you may find that distance halved in the Netherlands.

Remember less devotion to the auto means smaller streets, less wide arterial roads and highways and smaller parking lots... all told, less space over all between things. We devote an awful lot of empty space to the care and feeding of the automobile in the US... huge amounts of land actually.

I-Like-To-Bike

1. What makes you think YOUR bike commuting distances are "typical" of bike commuters in the U.S. or The Netherlands? You aren't considering the posters of BF A&S or Commuting list as typical or representative of the U.S. bicycle commuting population are you?

2. What makes you think typical bicycle commuting distance ridden by typical U.S. bicycle commuters are more or less than the distance ridden by the Dutch?

If the distance is considered too far for practical bicycle commuting in the NL, it probably will also be considered too far in the U.S.

As previously pointed out the distance from border to border is irrelevant for bicycle commuting purposes.

genec

As I stated, the distance from town to town is not relevant... as few in the US commute such distances typically. So yes, I fully agree that the distances from border to border are irrelevant. (and that argument is often brought up and truly means nothing.... Sure, you may visit grandma some 300 miles away from time to time, but the average American does NOT commute that distance... various studies show the average American commutes some 12-15 miles, typically)

Number 2 was answered in my post which you quoted, but somehow ignored... Oh yes, because you only cited part of my post... the rest of it says: At any particular time in the US one can find a lot of empty space devoted to the automobile that isn't there... empty parking lots, empty highways, empty downtown parking spaces, etc... thus while we may have similar stores and services as folks in the Netherlands, we space them further apart to allow for the automobile...

We get downright insane about providing for the auto... to the point of drive through restaurants to drive through liqueur stores, drive through coffee shops and even drive through funeral homes. We've even had drive in movies. All that space remains space whether a car is on it or not... therefore it is highly likely that stores, services and even homes do not have the same density here in the US as they may in someplace that does not "worship" the automobile to the extent that we do.

Now as to Number 1... that is extrapolated from number 2 AND from conversations I have had with both cyclists here and in Europe... and by things I have personally seen in Europe (not necessarily the Netherlands). But to answer your question directly, someone could commute just as far in the Netherlands as I have commuted in the US. But I doubt that they do, typically, again due to reason number 2 above. I have also found that walking about in European cities was easier... destinations where shorter, services/shops were more decentralized (few malls for instance), and public transport was more readily used.

As a classic example of that space/density issue, go back to the OP and view the citing on parking for 10,000 bikes mentioned. Now consider that to park 10,000 cars in the US would take some 10 to 12 times the space. I wish I could say that well that figure doesn't work as each car can hold 3-4 people... but the fact is we don't tend to "bunch up" our passengers in cars... lots and lots of people drive their 72 or so square feet of space empty and alone. Even if every car had 4 people inside, it would still take 3 times the parking for the automobile to transport 10,000 people verses 10,000 individuals on bikes. 3 times more space... under ideal conditions.

So yes, the size of the country doesn't matter one bit... the space devoted to the car (whether in use at the time or not) DOES affect the distances one may have to go in a town.

vol

Makes me proud . I do not own a car, but I do have a driver's license, mainly for the reason that the Driver's License is a Standard National ID Card in the U.S.. I keep wondering about this fact, as it seems as if in the U.S. every adult is expected--practically required--to be a car driver, which is totally unreasonable in my view. This may be one of the factors why driving and car-ownership are encouraged in the U.S., as soon as a youth reaches adult age. How many people don't feel like buying a car after getting their driver's licenses.

P.S. #2 and #3 in 556x45's list should make Manhattan, NYC a starting point for popularizing cycling.

I-Like-To-Bike

The average American may commute 12-15 miles and that average American very typically is NOT commuting that distance by bicycle.

All the rest of your explanation about automobile use does nothing to explain the average/typical distance a typical bike commuter rides in either the U.S.or anywhere else.

genec

Really... so lesser density cities mean nothing to you? Cities planned with lots of empty space devoted to the automobile... that doesn't mean that THINGS ARE FURTHER APART?

Here, perhaps a graphic will help...



Cities that are designed primarily for cars and lots of them will have lots of space between things that people want to access. Cities that are designed for pedestrians and cyclists will tend to have things closer together as bicycles and people do not need as much space to operate as do a bunch of 72 sq feet empty car "boxes."

FBinNY 

What no-one seems to say about cycling in Holland is that compared with the rest of Europe, the greater percentage of bicycle use is not in lieu of the automobile, but in lieu of public transit. While many places invested heavily in mass transit, the Netherlands invested in bicycle infrastructure.

It probably suited their needs better, but if one reads the stats carefully, they'll find auto use in the Netherlands is not especially low.

I'll venture that you'll find the lowest auto use in dense USA cities that made heavy investments in mass transit, regardless of whether they're known as bike friendly.

Every place has it's own needs, which vary according to density, average commute distance, weather, terrain and quality, convenience and cost of public transit. Bicycle use will vary according to those same criteria. For cities with decent weather and terrain, with relatively short commutes, and no highly focused travel patterns, investment in bicycle infrastructure may make more sense than much greater investments in mass transit.

We cannot apply one size fits all logic when discussing transit needs within the USA, since this is not a homogenous country. We have to look at each city's needs and opportunities and address them with tailor made solutions. This is why I generally don't like Federal involvement in what is more properly a local issue.

I-Like-To-Bike

It DOES mean NOTHING when calculating average or typical distances ridden by bicycle commuters.

It does probably mean that all other things being equal, there will be fewer bicycle commuters than areas where people live close enough to their destination to consider bicycle commuting a viable option.

FBinNY 

Less density does not automatically translate to longer commutes or more car use.

Some of the least dense areas are farmland. Where there are mostly family farms the commuting distance is zero since folks live and work in the same place. Likewise northern Alaska has very low density, but with small villages the commutes are also short to none.

The key isn't density, but the average distance between residence and work. Here in the USA we tend to zone so there are industrial/commercial areas with little or no population and bedroom communities with little or no commerce, often not even retail.

Compare to Italy for example where you'll see a mix of factories, farms, residences, and shops within limited areas, so people have plenty of job opportunities close to home.

Some years back I had the opportunity to visit a component maker outside of Taichung. It was a semi-rural/small town area and I was very surprised to see only 1 bicycle parked in the rack out front. I commented about the lack of bike use among the workers of a bicycle component maker to the manager, and asked if perhaps the workers left their bikes out back. Answer --- Oh, no. Very few workers rode to work, they tive too close and walk instead.

This pattern was common throughout Taiwan, where businesses on the outskirts of the cities hired locally and workers opted to walk to work.