I-Like-To-Bike

There is at least one ardent Vehicular Cycling spokesman, who occasional posts on this list, who swears that a principal component of vehicular cycling is "lawful" conduct.

Has that changed?

spare_wheel

yeah you are right it's not really vehicular cycling a la J.F. "urban cycling" is sometimes used but it's also associated with messengers.

this video from someone in london provides a decent illustration of how i ride during my winter rush hour commutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtRp...OI4xzAdyJrhj4O

beachczar

"I am not a risk taker - other than the fact that I ride a bicycle in a motor vehicle world."

Yes, you are. Other than some modern exceptions, U.S. roads are designed for motorized vehicles - not bicycles. And many of those new, "bike friendly" roadways are nothing more than a painted stripe intended (laughingly) to separate fast-moving 3-ton vehicles from slower-moving 25 lb bikes.

"I just refuse to play by their rules."
Hmmm.... I wonder what would happen to riders if drivers routinely scoffed at those above-mentioned stripes? You know, like a bike rider might scoff at other traffic control devices.

italktocats

its funny, youre only proving his point by arguing about his style


hes saying **** you since you wont approve, and youre saying get our approval


oh bloody irony

italktocats

so why should he care about the rules, they wont save him, help him or otherwise work in his favor?

i wonder if any of you angels ever walked trough a large crowd, or maybe a busy trainstation; people going everywhere whenever they want, but noone bumps into eachother, noone gets run over and noone gets hurt, because noone wants to get hurt

kickstart

I don't see any issue with high speed vehicular cycling when it can be done effectively and safely. I also appreciate not stopping for a red light at 2 am in a bad neighborhood when no one is around.
The problem is when one extends those actions to times and places that aren't appropriate while trying to justify it by the failures of others, using ones lifestyle to rationalize the inequities of it, and claiming its a positive example of behavior.

JoeyBike

Sorry, you must be new. In New Orleans where I grew up and now reside, no one who lives here for more than a month stops for red lights when the coast is clear. I have cycled here for decades and have never even once seen someone hanging out at a red light at an empty crossroad. Maybe there are one or two who stop for reds and we never cross paths, but THEY are no the norm here. So there is your answer. If it becomes the NORM, it still works great.

You have some picture in your head of how I ride that is inaccurate. I don't take many risks. I never proceed through any intersection if my vision is blocked by another vehicle, building, or structure no matter if I have a GREEN light. I only go when I can do so without affecting anyone else be it in a car, a bike, or on foot. I never want a motorist to have to touch their brakes or their horn because of some move I made because if I start doing that...someone looking at their phone will take me out on the first day.

The only object that has even the remote chance of striking me from the side is a meteorite. And so few cars catch up to me due to my riding style that my odds of being hit from behind are literally 1/1000th the chances of someone riding slow and not "playing" the traffic signals and riding in the gaps created by them.

beachczar

And thank YOU for your help with that global warming thing. You must ride one of those organic, sustainable, bamboo & thatch cycles. They are awesome - no metals to mine, transport, smelt, cut, machine, or weld. And the eco-friendly, no-paint scheme is cool, too. I never could figure out what sustainable material those tires & tubes were made from. They can't possibly be rubber as rubber production & processing is a big-time environmental polluter. Well, at least you don't have to use petroleum-based lubricants - right? Sheesh, don't even get me started on how you source & prepare your food, or maintain your clothing.

Seriously, the sentiment is appreciated, but your extreme selfishness and narrow mindedness negates any good you think you're doing for mankind (if that's what you think you're doing). Who even wants the planet to be here if we have you with whom we must live?

JoeyBike

That is one reason for sure. But I don't want people trying it who don't feel comfy less than three feet from large vehicles or can't get out of their own way.

My main reason for sticking my chin out here on A&S is just to get people thinking outside their comfort zone SPECIFICALLY getting themselves hurt while THINKING they are doing the right things for their health and safety on a bike in a city grid. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but they should hear all sides of the story.

A good example would be if I were driving a car on the freeway at the minimum posted speed (let's say 45 mph) on a high traffic day while the rest of the motorists are driving slightly OVER the 70mph limit. Me, obeying the law doing 45, and everyone else driving 75. Is that a SAFE situation? Picture cars piling up behind me, squeezing into tiny gaps to pass me on both sides, missing my rear bumper by inches, getting road rage, honking, and otherwise creating mayhem. Maybe someone ten cars back texting their sweet granddaughter is behind someone with no brake lights and WHAM...a 20 car pileup. Extreme example but I have a point.

I am well within my rights legally to drive 45 mph. No doubt about it. And those other folks are breaking the law. But what would be the safest thing for me to do, assuming my car is in good shape and I am a decent driver? The safest thing for me to do would be to speed up to 70-75. Breaking the law at that moment would be safer than abiding.

Let's say I am in a school zone right at the bell to go home. The speed limit is 20mph. Would it be safer to do 5mph at that moment. You bet. So in this instance, slowing down would be prudent.

This particular thread was started, as I mentioned, to show concrete evidence that my city is full of random violent acts. This adds another dimension. Now I am driving 45 mph on and empty freeway with people shooting at me. Should I speed up to make it harder to hit me? I would, and I do. The Law is not protecting me at that moment. It's all on me.

Booger1

So if everybody in NOLA road/drove off a cliff,looks like you would follow right along.... That's what everybody in NOLA does....

italktocats

you know a lot about him, are you dating?

JoeyBike

Someone else already made that exact point. You know what happens to people who try to live an aboriginal lifestyle in the USofA? Ask any Native American on a reservation. "We" (Americans) have a history of killing people, or sequestering them onto farms when they do not fit their round bottoms into our square holes (and we want their land). So if I wanted to join a group of people living a sustainable lifestyle, where would I go to do such a thing? Nowhere. We, the "civilized people", have killed, locked up, enslaved, or made a circus act out of every single one of them. They got exactly what WE deserve.

I do what I am allowed to do. The best I can without living on a reservation.

JoeyBike

Actually, it's flat as a pancake here. So everyone is NOT driving off a cliff and yes, I am following right along.

I-Like-To-Bike

This (not waiting at red lights and proceeding when traffic is clear)is nothing unique to New Orleans, the same applies to Philadelphia where I was raised and usually visit relatives every year. I see no problem with that; never did a policeman or motorist give a darn in my experience.

kickstart

So basically "stop for nothing" was hyperbole?
When I drove long haul back in the early 2000's I got to NO once in a while and never noticed any more disregard for laws than normal, is this something new? limited to cyclists? or unique to a certain local?

JoeyBike

Cyclists go when they can. Motorists mostly run a stale yellow or fresh red fairly consistently. Many of the 35+mph roads and boulevards are lousy with traffic cams that detect speed, right on red roll through, and blatant red light running. So little by little the culture of running red lights is changing for motorists.

As for cyclists, of the long list of reasons why we keep moving, HEAT and HUMIDITY are high on the list. Try blasting along at a good clip and then stopping for a minute in direct sunlight next to a public bus engine on a still day that is 100* and 100% humidity - in your work clothes (commuters here don't wear techie clothing to cycle to work). Now that NOLA has put many great bicycle routes on road diets and added dedicated bike lanes the culture might change during mild weather months. I have to admit that sometimes when I get lazy or winded from a traffic sprint there is a slight chance that I will wait for a green light after being forced to stop by crossing traffic IF and only IF I have a designated place to exist, a place to get moving when the light turns green, and a place to meander up to speed completely out of the way of overtaking vehicles. Momentum works both ways. An object at rest wants to stay at rest. That could be me in a safe neighborhood on a street that gives me some breathing room. So maybe if I am tempted to take-er-easy under certain circumstances, more cyclists will try waiting for a green now and then too. We shall see.

In a sense. My ambition when I embark on my commute is to never stop. Sometimes I get to a busy crossing and instead of waiting for a green and going straight across I turn right on red, then a left at the next corner. It does not generally matter if I go right then left, or straight then right - gonna end up in the same place. "Stop for nothing" is not too far off though. I could go an entire work week - 10 commutes of 5 to 10 miles each depending on errands and never stop even once. I may slow down, alter my route or my course, go right then a U-turn instead of waiting for a green arrow to turn left, things like that. I never want to be dead in the water. I never want to hear some one tell me "Look at me...I'm the Captain now..."

My intent is to stop for nothing. I'm pretty good at it. But it was not a claim that I just blow through crowded intersections without regard for my life. I find a work-a-round and just keep moving whenever possible. Path of least resistance if you will.

Six jours

The host, in this case, is America, and even that tap water at the local park exists because of people with jobs. So you are taking advantage of the work of those people while at the same time complaining about them, insulting them, and accusing them of destroying the planet.

Now, we can argue about whether that meets the absolute definition of "parasite", if you really want. Frankly, I can can think of several better words to use, but none of them are allowed here.

<edit> And frankly, FWIW, I have no real problem with such "parasites". I'm actually kind of glad to live in a society where the occasional charming bohemian is free to exist. It's just that there's a significant difference between the guy who decides to drop out and do things his own way, and the guy who decides to drop out and then be a complete dick to the people who have made it possible for him to drop out without having to live in a cave and drink his own urine for survival.

Six jours

Maybe the most laughable rationalization I have seen on this site. I mean, seriously "I have to contribute to global warming or the government will kill me"? Really?

beachczar

***** APOLOGY TO JoeyBike *****

JoeyBike, I apologize for the tone of my posts yesterday. It was inappropriate. I had a bad day and should not have revealed that in this forum. I come here to find some joy in my life, as I expect others do, and I ruined that. Again, I hope you accept my sincere apology. Cheers & happy riding.

FBinNY 

Six,

You need to cool it. The rationalization may not make sense to you (doesn't to me either) but you're not owed one in the first place. Your attacks are starting to remind me of the second photo you posted in the helmet thread.

Joey's work just enough to live life style may not be your cup of tea, but it's his life, not yours. It affords him the freedom to travel and explore, and his willingness to leave simply makes it workable. I don't know that it's any worse than the folks who work like crazy just to pay for lots of stuff they don't need. As I see it Joey isn't a great builder, but he isn't a parasite either (by any definition), he's just someone who made different choices. Possibly if some more people decided to live more simply, the US wouldn't have such a large trade imbalance with China.

Six jours

As long as people like Joey complain that anyone with a job is a fool and that the U.S. government will kill him if he doesn't contribute to global warming, then people like me are going to make fun of him for it.

JoeyBike

We Ain't Comin' Out (Waco) Texas. Ever heard of it? (Reference) That's one example. Trail Of Tears. Google that. Try sleeping in public without a permit anywhere in the USofA, even in the woods or a National Park. Forget private property. Worse yet, get caught relieving yourself anyplace but a proper bathroom.

In our free country, if a person tries to drop off the grid and wander like Jesus (I am not religious, just using an example most everyone knows of) expecting God to feed you in America you will be treated like a vagrant, beggar, bum, or criminal. If you try to start a tribe of your own on public land I would hate to see the results of that too. Reference Waco. They even owned their compound.

So yes, if you don't live a certain way you will be hassled, arrested, or killed. So I try to stay just far enough inside the "approved" boundaries of our society to stay out of trouble. And try to enlighten folks wherever I can.

JoeyBike

I am not even going to go back and look. It's all good man. This place is cheap entertainment for me. I don't take it too seriously on my worst day. Sorry you had a bad day. We're cool.

Hugs.

Six jours

Waco is not an especially good example, because after all was said and done, those folks were collecting machine guns and allowing adults to have sex with children. I don't at all approve of how the government proceeded, but as an argument for being allowed to 'live off the grid" it sucks.

Nor is the trail of tears a very good example. The U.S. government of 150 years ago having an abhorrent policy toward the indigenous people of the U.S. 150 years ago has absolutely nothing to do with you being rude to people with jobs while running stoplights on your bicycle.

Now as to the rest, Google comes up with countless "off the grid communes" in the U.S., all of which seem to be free of ATF agents and black helicopters. Beyond that, there is still quite a bit of America which is so far off the beaten path that, assuming you have a way to get there, you can do just about anything you like without anybody knowing about it at all. So if you really do want to stop depending upon the efforts and products of people with jobs, head on out, strip off all of your man-made items, and have at it. (You might want to take a look at another Wiki reference first, though...)

JoeyBike

It is a great example because the feds could have arrested any of those people at the local grocery. But they chose to corner them inside the compound and make a nice neat package of it. At any rate, American citizens ended up dead and not much concrete proof of the child abuse, although there was enough testimony for me to be convinced. Who cares if they had machine guns? I don't.

150 years later, have we returned their land, with interest and damages for our misdeeds and moved all of their descendents back to their homelands? Nah, we just say "sorry...our bad" and let them run tax free gambling casinos.

Farmers. Not my cup of tea. Farming is not sustainable either in the long term. Farming was the start of our problems.

It can't be done solo. It takes a community and lots of free land. I would say a minimum of 20 people and 100 sq miles of suitable land. Then the minute children start being born the government is going to step in and take them from you. I have researched the issue and found that living a truly sustainable lifestyle is a thing of the past. We are all on a runaway train that will one day relatively soon will run out of track. I chose to have as much fun as possible while I can. Things are going to get real ugly in a future that people living today will be around to witness. Many scientists agree that it's too late anyway. We have 20 to 50 years of climate payback in the pipeline already. So what would be the point of hiding in the woods alone?